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Stealth
Jun 12, 2017 13:42:03 GMT -5
Post by electrohydra on Jun 12, 2017 13:42:03 GMT -5
When you land a sneak attack it actually tells you how much damage it's doing.
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Stealth
Jun 12, 2017 16:00:23 GMT -5
Post by Psionic-Entity on Jun 12, 2017 16:00:23 GMT -5
Detect is hard-coded, but it would be possible to reduce the number of effective detect attempts by doing something like setting stealth scores to 100 in some rounds, and to their normal values in others.
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Stealth
Jun 12, 2017 16:13:13 GMT -5
Post by Rekov on Jun 12, 2017 16:13:13 GMT -5
I would like to echo Lugwy's suggestion that only some mobs start in detect mode, and that these are clearly labeled (Outlaw Sentry, or something like that). This adds another level of tactics for players to consider, as opposed to a situation where more or less at random you get detected, and there's nothing you could have done to prevent it or prepare for it. It opens the door in the future for items or abilities that can be used to hinder a specific mob's ability to detect. Throw a pebble to distract the sentry mob, or something like that.
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Stealth
Jun 19, 2017 20:30:39 GMT -5
Post by Psionic-Entity on Jun 19, 2017 20:30:39 GMT -5
Been working on some changes to make here. Not exactly sure what the final ability list will be but I'm looking to keep it relatively low-impact on the names/functions of the major branches. Some notes so far:
- Flanking attack using a pool is kind of silly, would be nice to somehow disconnect it from that. Issue is it can't be standalone otherwise it would be a no brainer for pretty much any melee DPS type. Some options I'm looking at are increasing the potency of regular sneaks made from flanking positions, straight no-pool sneaks from flanking, and maybe some kind of bonus for making continued attacks against someone you previously backstabbed and who hasn't turned on you. - I don't want it to be viable to sneak past encounters to loot dungeons. On the other hand opening fights with full sneak attacks has to be viable as well, so there's a pretty thin range of modifiers where that works. - It's pretty difficult to work with the hardcoded nwn2 stealth system but I do have the option of making abilities that essentially guarantee you a certain percentage more time before being detected. This would work by occasionally having rounds at +100 stealth so that you can't be detected there. - There are a few other mechanics I'd like to see added Getting a portion of sneak attack damage on a hit that gets fully soaked would be good, and I also might want to try writing an activated ability to use with stealth, but not sure what it would be. One thing I have discovered is that spell-like abilities can detect whether or not a target saw you before casting, so this opens up the possibility of tying activated stuff to it.
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Stealth
Jun 19, 2017 21:27:29 GMT -5
Post by Rekov on Jun 19, 2017 21:27:29 GMT -5
I thought the solution to players sneaking through dungeons for the loot was already in: Interacting with loot nodes has the potential of bringing you out of stealth. If this is still a frequently occurring problem, I would suggest adjusting this knob before making stealth itself less reliable, even if it means all loot nodes always bring you out of stealth.
There are some grey areas that might warrant more consideration. For example, I have on some occasions walked through the Undercity stealthed, not for the loot nodes, but because I needed Detect XP and nothing else, and it seemed like the best way to go about that.
There are situations in dungeons where the ability to remain undetected for long periods of time is the the difference between a wipe and just scraping through. If my character is the only one still standing, I need to be able to move around stealthed if I want any hope of luring mobs away from my group and doubling back to revive them, for example. As it stands currently, I can't enter stealth long enough to escape mobs I'm being bludgeoned to death by reliably. On occasion I get away, but just as often I go into stealth and they just keep on whacking.
Getting Flanking Attack right is going to be tough, which you touched on. To sneak attack from stealth, you need 3 trees (15 abilities), while flanking attack theoretically only needs 2 trees (10 abilities). All four abilities either can have added synergy, or Flanking Attack could end up being its own distinct path, which you wouldn't necessarily mix with stealth. A character taking all four trees (20 abilities) is going to want to feel like those abilities are giving them the same kind of value that 20 abilities in other skills would give them, as it would be a fairly large percentage of someone's build.
People have argued that stealth should be a utility in its own right, so it isn't really fair to count those 10 abilities as a prerequisite cost for Sneak Attack. That may be the intent, but if it is, stealth really does need to be a utility in its own right. And that means that it needs use beyond building sneak attack for combat. You really would need to be able to sneak past enemies fairly reliably.
In terms of more reliably proccing sneak attacks out of stealth, a thought occurred to me. My original plan was to work toward Wounding Shot, which reads as follows:
Crippling Shot which I currently have uses the same language: "if the attack hits." This turned out not to be the case, unfortunately. The attack not only needs to hit, but also deal damage above armor. If the same holds true for Wounding Attack, it won't be a reliable way to proc Sneak Attacks after all. A possible fix would be to just change that, so that such abilities proc on all hits, not just armor penetrating hits. I imagine this would cause balance issues elsewhere, though.
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Stealth
Jun 19, 2017 22:14:24 GMT -5
Post by Lugwy on Jun 19, 2017 22:14:24 GMT -5
Have each tier of Flanking Attack require the appropriate tier of Sneak Attack as a prerequisite as well? (even if it won't be using the pool and just the base SA damage instead.)
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Stealth
Jun 22, 2017 14:22:31 GMT -5
Post by electrohydra on Jun 22, 2017 14:22:31 GMT -5
Hide in Plain Sight on a cooldown?
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Stealth
Jun 22, 2017 14:38:13 GMT -5
via mobile
Post by whyemmdee on Jun 22, 2017 14:38:13 GMT -5
HiPS as a feat has already been suggested a few times, but it will not be added as an option. Smoke grenades and smoke stompers exist for that.
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Stealth
Jun 22, 2017 15:38:34 GMT -5
Post by Rekov on Jun 22, 2017 15:38:34 GMT -5
Re-entering stealth with the intent of building up for another sneak attack wouldn't be a viable tactic at present in any case, because you'd do more damage just attacking normally. If you're soloing I guess it would work. Smoke is a panic button, basically.
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Stealth
Jun 23, 2017 6:54:16 GMT -5
via mobile
Post by modular on Jun 23, 2017 6:54:16 GMT -5
Smoke is a panic button if the weather is deploying it. My tank has stompers for stealther support.
To reduce the issue to simplicity - sneak attack has a minor cake proposition, flanking attack is used as a DPS boost, and the low value of sneak attack makes engaging in it a second time generally less than worthwhile.
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Stealth
Jul 2, 2017 12:27:01 GMT -5
Post by Psionic-Entity on Jul 2, 2017 12:27:01 GMT -5
Some updates on this. I'm going to be too busy to do any sort of revamp over the next few weeks so instead of that I'm going to add a few tweaks to make stealth more usable in the mean time. This amounts to raising some base stealth scores on PCs and also tweaking NPC stats and giving them a chance to spawn out of detect mode.
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Stealth
Jul 3, 2017 16:21:16 GMT -5
Post by Fuzz on Jul 3, 2017 16:21:16 GMT -5
One thing I have discovered is that spell-like abilities can detect whether or not a target saw you before casting, so this opens up the possibility of tying activated stuff to it. What about certain gadgets and such being able to dish out some serious pain? Like what if you can Garrote with a pommel spike/boot knife to do like 400% damage in a single strike? Limitation might be that it uses double stamina in this manner to account for the stealth, so you're now working with less after you're revealed. There are other options with regard to gadgets and stealth... a silencer equipped pistol could maybe be used to do a point-blank execution style shot in the back of the head that has a chance to not reveal you or something? Maybe it triggers a temp invis effect for one round then re-stealths you, so for all intents and purposes you stayed stealthed (unless there's an even easier way to do it).
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Stealth
Jul 4, 2017 13:04:49 GMT -5
via mobile
Post by Lugwy on Jul 4, 2017 13:04:49 GMT -5
The only concern I have with getting around mob Detect skills by setting player stealth values to 100 is the possibility of overflow errors. I recall some higher-magic PWs where a skill high enough to potentially go over 100 after a d20 roll will sometimes overflow back to the beginning, so the game thinks the person has much lower stealth values than they actually do.
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Stealth
Jul 4, 2017 15:20:49 GMT -5
Post by Fuzz on Jul 4, 2017 15:20:49 GMT -5
The only concern I have with getting around mob Detect skills by setting player stealth values to 100 is the possibility of overflow errors. I recall some higher-magic PWs where a skill high enough to potentially go over 100 after a d20 roll will sometimes overflow back to the beginning, so the game thinks the person has much lower stealth values than they actually do. This has been a thing since NWN1. I believe the overflow cap is 127, but don't quote me on that.
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