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Post by fallensuns on Jul 20, 2015 9:52:12 GMT -5
I for one think that the DR is way too high early on. Considering that all skills start at level 1 (or is it 0?), you have no specialization, and there is nothing you are even remotely efficient at. It is quite frustrating to battle a single Sewer Wolf for nearly four minutes as a brand new character, due to DR negating almost all the damage half the time that attacks actually hit. I've been playing with a few numbers, and have come up with a progression which I think is far more appropriate. It's not perfect, but it's a start, and is based on both armor value as well as armor skill. Armor type modifiers (T):
Light -- 1
Medium -- 2
Heavy -- 3
A = Armor value
S = Skill value
DR = (T + (A /(500 / S))) to ((T + A / 10) + ((A * S / 160) * T) / 2)
This creates a system where having a low skill, but high Armor results in less DR than what the armor is capable of. As the skill increases in level, more of the armor contributes to the DR. Heavy armor will, once the skill is high enough (85+) begin to provide DR higher than what the total armor value is listed as. The values could still use some tweaking, but it would prevent some of sillyness that is slapping on a big suit of armor with no knowledge of how to properly wear it, and immediately be granted very high protected. This should of course translate to monsters as well in some fashion, likely by giving them a fixed skill level depending on the difficulty. Increasing the skill (S) to 70 the DR becomes A = 14
S = 70
Light
DR = (1 + (14 /(500 / 70))) to ((1 + 14 / 10) + ((14 * 70 / 150) * 70) / 2)
DR = 2.96 to 5.67
Medium
DR = (2 + (14 /(500 / 70))) to ((2 + 14 / 10) + ((14 * 70 / 150) * 70) / 2)
DR = 3.96 to 9.93
Heavy
DR = (3 + (14 /(500 / 70))) to ((3 + 14 / 10) + ((14 * 70 / 150) * 70) / 2)
DR = 4.96 to 14.2Increasing the armor (A) to 20 instead the DR becomes A = 20
S = 19
Light
DR = (1 + (20 /(500 / 19))) to ((1 + 20 / 10) + ((20 * 19 / 150) * 19) / 2)
DR = 1.76 to 4,27
Medium
DR = (2 + (20 /(500 / 19))) to ((2 + 20 / 10) + ((20 * 19 / 150) * 19) / 2)
DR = 2.76 to 6.53
Heavy
DR = (3 + (20 /(500 / 19))) to ((3 + 20 / 10) + ((20 * 19 / 150) * 19) / 2)
DR = 3.76 to 8.8I'm guessing you probably haven't used heavy armor in an actual party-tank scenario.(I regularly tank 3-5 mobs at once.) The values you're suggesting will get you killed in about 5-10 rounds. The truth is with armor the way it is now, and I'm at about skill 19 (the xp gain dropped off significantly) I get absolutely stomped by say, trying to walk around outside the crypt alone. The reason the DR has the ability to absorb so much damage is because your base dodge is so terrible. Everything is going to hit you, multiple times. But I do agree that the DR for monsters needs tweaked, because as a one-hander I can't get through most things DR without a long slog of a battle where we beat on each other for a solid minute. |
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Post by mireigi on Jul 20, 2015 10:11:02 GMT -5
fallensuns: Of course, if the values for DR changes, the damage numbers need to change as well. As you pointed out, however, one-handed is far inferior to all else, except Unarmed, which is even worse.
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Post by Sobriquet on Jul 20, 2015 11:48:28 GMT -5
Not sure one hand is the worst of the bunch. I see dual wielders critting for zero damage on the regular. They can't seem to handle anything with armor too well.
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Post by electrohydra on Jul 20, 2015 11:59:38 GMT -5
I noticed two-weapon fighters don't get their additional attacks with their off-hand weapon. Adding those extra attacks would probably help them do the damage they should do?
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Post by mireigi on Jul 20, 2015 12:01:25 GMT -5
Dual wielding is basicly the same thing as one-handed. They use the same weapons and damage range, albeit with a small penalty.
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Post by kingofaquilonia on Jul 20, 2015 12:13:57 GMT -5
dual wielders get 3 attacks , so they do get an extra attack, though its hard to get through armor with those weapons unless you use the two weapon strike abilities
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Post by BlackmoreKnight on Jul 20, 2015 17:27:14 GMT -5
TWF feels pretty weak at the moment, yeah. Arlayna whiffs about half the attacks she lands on anything with appreciable DR. Which just happens to be the -only area currently viable to grind a lot-. TWF does have a niche, Arlyana absolutely shreds anything with light/no armor on. But I feel going forward that'll be a rarity.
I'm reminded how World of Charun (Which had a similar system for weapons and armor) handled things. Weapons had an Armor Pierce value, it wasn't all in base damage. If your AP roll exceeded the DR roll (DR was lower, base damage on weapons was NWN standard and DR on plate was like 3d10 vs slashing), the DR from that hit was halved. I don't know how it'd translate here but an Armor Pierce value for weapons it'd make sense for might help. Like on WoC things like maces had insane AP. But again, not sure how that'd work out here.
At the moment the absolute best character from a damage standpoint is a two-hander in medium armor. It might well be that way going forward because I don't think TWF scaling will keep up with armor scaling like two handers can with their base damage.
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Post by Guest on Jul 20, 2015 18:36:50 GMT -5
Sorry in advance for the barrage of questions. I've been playing around with throwaway characters for a day or two getting a handle on the system, and I'm feeling a little overwhelmed.
1. Item levels and skill progression - how exactly does this work? To use the example from the tutorial: "For instance, medium armor quoted at 5+5 (100) gives 5 armor to anyone, plus an additional point of armor for every 20 skill levels in the medium armor skill. Medium armor quoted at 5+1 (20) is the same item for anyone of skill level under 20, but worse for anyone above that." Is it 100/5 to come up with the +1 armor per 20 skill levels? So if a piece of armor were 5 + 10 (100), would it give +1 armor per 10 skill levels? Does this rule only apply to max level items, with those below 100 simply listing the cut-off point for their effectiveness?
2. Hybrid and ranged weapons - is there overlap in the skill trees here, or are they each considered a distinct and separate weapon type? Does a shotgun's activated ability benefit from the accuracy and damage bonuses for ranged weapons the Marksmanship tree, or do they only apply to traditional ranged weapons like pistols and rifles?
3. Relating to #2, shotguns' activated ability seems to use the player's melee AB to determine accuracy, bypassing the movement and armor penalties associated with ranged weapon AB. Is this intended?
4. What is Light Armor's intended niche? Is it geared more for stealth characters? Looking at the talents, I was surprised to see that Medium Armor has comparatively higher armor value and stamina regeneration while offering only 3 less Dodge AC than its Light counterpart. While it's true that Light Armor can make you faster with the right talents, I shudder to think of kiting something with NWN2's clunky movement and lag. Even as a ranged weapon user, Light Armor seems like a hard sell on paper when scale has a minor -1 ranged AB penalty.
5. One of the stealth abilities mentions hiding in plain sight. Is this the Hide In Plain Sight we all know from vanilla NWN2? Has it been changed in any way, and if so, how?
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Post by mireigi on Jul 20, 2015 18:53:01 GMT -5
I can only answer #4.
Light Armor is exactly for stealthy characters, as well as gunslingers, as it comes with the lowest penalty to stealthy movement and ranged accuracy. There is also the stamina and carry aspects to consider. Light Armor require less stamina to wear, thus freeing up more stamina for ability usage. The lower weight allows a character to carry more, which only really mean that they can carry more before they are slowed to a walk - EoA currently do not cause a character to be unable to move due to Heavy Encumberance.
Essentially, Light Armor is for glass cannons. Monster seem to be attracted to wearers of Light Armor, however, meaning that if you get into the thick of things, nearby monsters will change focus to you. Hopefully this is something that will be changed in the future, with monsters only changing targets due to abilities such as Taunt, or the monsters themselves having a preferance for certain targets (such as in Dungeon Siege 2 where some monsters would target spell casters when these cast a spell).
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jakunen
Gumshoe
Developer
Posts: 81 
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Post by jakunen on Jul 20, 2015 20:28:13 GMT -5
Light Armor is exactly for stealthy characters, as well as gunslingers, as it comes with the lowest penalty to stealthy movement and ranged accuracy. Light armor does indeed contribute the least amount of penalties to sneaking. However, for reasons that make zero sense, it is apparently a chain shirt (which is medium armor) that has the lowest penalty to ranged accuracy. |
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Post by BlackmoreKnight on Jul 20, 2015 21:00:11 GMT -5
 This is technically both a chain shirt and something that I don't think would make aiming hard. |
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Post by kingofaquilonia on Jul 20, 2015 21:05:38 GMT -5
Chain shirt is light armor , can only be made by tailors.
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jakunen
Gumshoe
Developer
Posts: 81
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Post by jakunen on Jul 20, 2015 21:29:07 GMT -5
I must be thinking of chainmail then, which must be medium armor. Too bad its only made by tailors.... and doesn't come with a half-naked man modeling it...  |
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Post by electrohydra on Jul 20, 2015 22:05:49 GMT -5
1. Yes, you got things right.
2. Considering there is a ranged skill for shotguns specifically, I would assume so.
3. Not sure.
5. Yup, it's the same HIPS we all know and love/hate. But it only functions in certain spots where you have cover. (Smoke grenades, for example, allow you top HIPS in them)
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