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Post by Kitsunenotsume on Apr 29, 2017 4:34:04 GMT -5
I've been somewhat confused for some time as to the primary difference here, as it seems that First Aid Kits are by and large inferior in all ways save price.
Both recover Cumulative Damage list due to combat, but the First Aid kit is limited to a maximum of 40% of the health the character entered the dungeon with (or at least such my observations tend to imply) while Recovery Potions can be brought along for the exact same weight (0.2lbs each), are not limited in their maximum cumulative damage removed, and any cumulative damage recovered with a green is removed from the available pool that a First Aid Kit can heal - meaning that a green makes the FAK unable to be used. The only combat benefit of a First Aid Kit is that it can be used on others without requiring an injector, but at the same limitation that 2 recovery potions can be consumed by a single character in the same time and for greater effect than the 10-15 cumulative damage mitigated potentially by the FAK - presuming the First Aid Kit does not hit it's limit as it is prone to do if the patient has been diligent with greens.
Am I missing something, or is there some subtlety to the First Aid Kit that I am missing in terms of it's basic purpose?
Note: I am not including discussions of clouds VS medicology, just the base items currently.
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Post by Lugwy on Apr 29, 2017 14:31:18 GMT -5
First Aid Kits give you a bit of First Aid XP. Kits are also pretty ridiculously cheap too.
That's it, I guess?
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Post by Kitsunenotsume on May 15, 2017 0:32:16 GMT -5
So, from my feedback from discussing it with various players, it seems that my observations are unopposed, though it seems that only Lugwy agrees enough to post.
Barring their use as (questionable) reagents, First Aid Kits are almost entirely inferior to rank-1 green potions in almost all ways save cost. - For post-combat healing, toxicity is a non-issue, as it just means standing around a bit longer or having a bit of toxicity that quickly depletes even in-combat. - For price, I can get 10 First Aid Kits for $2, and 10 rank 1 (or 2) Recovery Potions for $18 ($15 + 3 fennel), so potions are about ten times the price. - For single healing, First Aid Kits restore* 10 cumulative damage +1 per ten ranks of FA; a rank 1 Restoration Potion cures 15 cumulative damage, every time. * - Often lower, depending on if they have been healed, used a green potion, wear Kevlar, or just haven't been damaged enough recently - none of which are visible to the player, let-alone a medic with the 60 FA ranks or [First Aid (I)] required to outperform anyone with an injector and a rank 1 potion. - First Aid Kits are consumed almost randomly, since after combat (or using a First-Aid-Kit that restores its maximum cumulative damage) there is an equal chance that 1 or more HP is restored as it is that "The target does not need assistance"; Potions are consumed on use, but effect is guaranteed if standing HP is not at max.
The general issue *seems* to stem from the concept of 'maximum self healing' (to quote the Kevlar Vest mod), how it isn't visible to anyone who needs to actively interact with it, and how it isn't applied across all sources of removing cumulative damage. As it stands, First Aid Kits seem to primarily relegated to unreliable tertiary means of getting First Aid XP, as it is much less hassle to spec into Triage if you actually want the XP - Triage can be used to 'juice' the XP out of a spawn-node by sitting behind a merc or ally in block, whereas First Aid kits can be used to cure, at most, three quarters (45%, +10% from rank 100 FA, +25% from First Aid 5)of the total starting hit-points of the party across an entire dungeon. This same issue with visibility ultimately cripples the [Sawbones] line - If you restore 1 cumulative damage on a heavily wounded patient because their maximum self healing has been already spent, you lose much of the perk and any further ability to benefit from the ability since you just spent your round making 1 attack, compared to 2+. Conversely, someone with an Injector loaded with Restoration potions can be quite sure to restore 15+ even in that state, and someone with Potion Cloud would just drop a green fog and not bother with First Aid Kits at all for the entire party for the entire dungeon.
I figure that if First Aid Kits and Restoration Potions were brought in line with one another: either with Maximum Self Healing being applied to Greens, or being removed from First Aid Kits: then First Aid Kits would become a much more economical and appreciated means of healing (abet with increasing dungeon difficulty, or lots cheaper healing).
The opposition I see there is that Potions have Toxicity to balance them, while the First Aid Kit does not - at which point First Aid Kits are superior because they don't burn tox. My counterpoint to that is that potions can be drunk twice a round - One green + 1 red or 2 greens is FAR more potent in combat than a single round spend bandaging; and that a high ranked restoration potion is much greater in effect than the bandage, if compared one to one such as via Injector. These become significant factors when combined with a support character using Triage, where healing is primarily without Tox concerns and more about action-economy and cumulative damage.
Another option is making First Aid Kits more potent out of combat, and Potions more potent in-combat, but that undermines the Sawbones line (which I figure would need to be altered regardless).
I'm also quite certain that there are other methods, but have not occurred to me in my situation and observation.
Discussion is greatly appreciated.
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Post by Theorem of Neutrality on May 16, 2017 9:54:36 GMT -5
The main use I've found for healing kits is for conservation of greens outside of combat. Using a mixture of greens and a first aid kit is more cost effective if, say, just the tank is beat up. Otherwise, potion clouds are the way to go.
One possible change I can see is allowing for more than one healing kit to be used per encounter, perhaps scaling with investment into First Aid; it could be balanced out with a slight reduction in First Aid xp granted by usage.
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Post by Kitsunenotsume on May 16, 2017 14:38:05 GMT -5
How often and how many First Aid Kits can be used is based off a function of cumulative damage taken, to a maximum of a portion of starting hp for the dungeon (something like 40% of cumulative damage taken, to a maximum of 40% of starting hp, plus 1% per 10 FA ranks and 5% per [First Aid] ability).
This means that in a fight that deals a lot of cumulative damage (because you have a healer or are chugging reds with no greens) you already can use multiple First Aid Kits after a fight. However, that ability quickly becomes ineffectual as Restoration Potions and FAKs are used in auch combination that you go over the max, after which only green potions are useful.
Saving cost is the only significant benefit to use FAKs without ability investment i can identify, as they weigh the same as potions, but are not as potent nor reliable in longer dungeons. And, as noted in the initial post, comparing potion clouds to medicology is unlikely to affect balance of the basic items, which heavily favors potions, implies that you have a heavily invested medic over a lay person with the basic items, and fails to account for gasmask/divehelm, so I am trying to avoid that discussion. If it needs to be had, though, I am not against talking about it though.
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Post by gazoo on May 29, 2017 12:12:10 GMT -5
I think this new change to FA kits puts them in a good place now: getting more than one effective use out of them is huge. I've been using them quite a bit, whereas previously I might have used them once or twice per save-rest cycle.
For the few cumulative they do, it actually has a significant effect on tox reduction, economy of greens, and cost saving. Very useful out of battle for cumulative damage now, especially with not having to detox from greens all the time. My HP aren't that high, and I almost always keep them topped up to avoid getting gibbed in an unlucky round or two.
(Although, the 50 cumulative text is a bit misleading...but soon to be addressed, I think)
Also, FA kits will be much more useful underwater - since injectors and potions have quite a few limitations.
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