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Post by gazoo on Jul 4, 2017 19:56:32 GMT -5
Well, firstly let me say that the initial 4 Kuoa-toa and 3 merman vs ....1 is a bit overkill. It's not as if they are crazy-hard like the pirates, but with those numbers damage and crits can add up.
I luckily managed to kill them (choke point, grenades and I had a rifle)...until...whoops looks like I got killed by a Kuoa-toa respawn during this post (I thought battle was done). Guess I need to concentrate. More to follow on next attempt.
Edit: So far at surviving 3 merman + 10 kuoa-toa. Then finally dying to numbers. Are the Kuoa-toas endless spawns? Am I supposed to run for the dive ropes or just keep defending? Confused and on to next attempt...
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Post by drunkensolamnic on Jul 7, 2017 8:13:22 GMT -5
Modular and I got to the end of this phase of the dungeon. Having done so I alone despite having a medic character with me used 10 recovery potions, 20 healing kits, 10 stamina potions, and 40 healing potions in the course of staying alive. I lost track of time but this phase took us well over 30 minutes to clear. The creature at the end, does an incredible amount of damage, to the point it was only sheer luck that I was able to pump some crits into it with a repeating trigger and survive with 5hp and near max'd toxicity before it disappeared a third time.
My suggestions would be to lower the damage on this final spawn, if the average PC has 150hp, coming out of the marathon Kuoa-toa and Merman spawns to get bitchslapped every few rounds for 90+ damage is a little overkill. The Kuoa-Toa stage itself needs something to indicate that you need to finish fighting them off before the under-water stage will occur; maybe the NPC shouting into the normal chat log instead of the combat log that "Oh God its a horde of them! Kill them all!" or something.
I'd also like to suggest that when you unlock the ability to go diving in this area, that you also allow PCs to access their storage, maybe via a dialogue of "I brought extra supplies on the skiff from Plenkten" or such. Cause again, over 70 potions down to just survive in good order not to mention the sheer number of munitions that were used in defending the ship. I think I used more consumables than I have in any 3 Wyler runs combined.
The pacing of the Kuoa-Toa spawns however, it did get monotonous (awesome xp though!) so maybe reduce the number of waves by 30%?
A note on Merman Alchemists - the combination of ranged acid bombs + ranged acid-weapons is an incredibly difficult for PCs to deal with as "Neutralizers" are apparently high-level loot and we dont have access to them yet. Acid potions may assist to some point with this, but I'd say give them one or the other, or give them limited uses on the acid bomb ability (I'd say like 3, that means each one could do around 75 pure aoe elemental damage); again this harkens back to the sheer length of the dungeon, the brutality of getting to the underwater phase, and the fact that the sheer spawn sizes means that the Tox-bars are needed for HP not just elemental mitigation.
I'd also make it a point to include at least a couple loot-points that are guaranteed to be non-locking containers. I managed to go through to the underwater caverns without getting a single loot item from a box, due to having to break every lock open.
That said... the aesthetic of the experience was fucking awesome and intense, though maybe some server-message (yellow) flavor text floating up as you enter different areas of the ruins might add to this.
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Post by modular on Jul 7, 2017 9:04:21 GMT -5
The spawns have a Dodge greater than 21 - even in optimal position, I had a hard time engaging them, with max ab and an boosting monocle, at on level skill.
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Post by gazoo on Jul 8, 2017 10:05:46 GMT -5
I can't comment on the mobs, but as for my opinion on the other two points:
1. Locked and trapped chests:
There are many players who invest in these skills, and this makes them valuable to bring along. Some characters are brutes and some are finesse. There are alternative areas that have an absence of locks and traps. Further, you don't always get broken items, even failing a trap or lock. Sometimes you get unlucky.
2.Storage.
Not at all needed. The first part is an incredibly short circle, compared to many other dungeons. If you are going to pack the heaviest ammo or whatnot, then you will be encumbered. 70 potions only weigh 14 pounds. Consideration needs to be given to all the bonus weapons, etc that are carried. Or perhaps you need to use that strength potion.
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Post by modular on Jul 8, 2017 11:00:34 GMT -5
In the section past the first... strange statue, after the dive, where you encounter the Merman Alchemist, the terrain is built in such a way that ranged mobs can engage even when the terrain would suggest a trench or cover.
And the alchemists are brutal. Definitely need less acid. Also, grenades can be near to center on the mermen and they don't take damage sometimes.
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Post by drunkensolamnic on Jul 8, 2017 12:10:10 GMT -5
I can't comment on the mobs, but as for my opinion on the other two points: 1. Locked and trapped chests: There are many players who invest in these skills, and this makes them valuable to bring along. Some characters are brutes and some are finesse. There are alternative areas that have an absence of locks and traps. Further, you don't always get broken items, even failing a trap or lock. Sometimes you get unlucky. 2.Storage. Not at all needed. The first part is an incredibly short circle, compared to many other dungeons. If you are going to pack the heaviest ammo or whatnot, then you will be encumbered. 70 potions only weigh 14 pounds. Consideration needs to be given to all the bonus weapons, etc that are carried. Or perhaps you need to use that strength potion. Are you ever going to make a comment that isn't "dont listen to these people, the solo artist can handle this"? Sometimes people get unlucky, but for fuck's sake get it through your head the dynamic changes as you add more people who are not optimized for combat performance vs adding more spawns for each one. If the goal is to balance for a group of 4-5, considerations need to be made that not everyone is going to play as effectively as you, and some of the cheesing that gets done in solo play cant be done in a group.
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Post by modular on Jul 9, 2017 19:27:30 GMT -5
23 Dodge, at the least - I've got 22s that simply missed cleanly.
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Post by Lugwy on Jul 9, 2017 20:53:52 GMT -5
As an aside note, 23 Dodge sounds about right for an area that tops out at CR 70, assuming player stats min-maxing their Dodge stat (16+(70/10) = 16 + 7 = 23).
Maybe a mob diversity with some being tankier (and less dodgier) than others? And having the dodgier ones be more fragile?
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Post by drunkensolamnic on Jul 9, 2017 21:31:30 GMT -5
Thats the way it seems set up now.
For the areas in general, we found alot of level 50 stuff, but I think one piece of gear in the 60-70 range, and it was itself only level 60. This probably needs to be tuned upward? From the perspective of crafting, there's no way to keep pace with PCs unless the loot keeps up with the challenge rating, as upkeeping gear for your companions does not maintain your skill levels.
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Post by gazoo on Jul 10, 2017 5:37:06 GMT -5
My experience with part I has been that the loot tiers are within the appropriate window for the most part, with some variance. I think the formula takes into account an average of a few skills, not just the very top skill, though - but that's a guess. Maybe it's just pure RNG.
As for part II and if there is an issue, there probably needs to be quite a few runs to evaluate the loot results and potential bugs. Originally I was discouraged by the loot in pt I, but it seems to have averaged with more runs.
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Post by drunkensolamnic on Jul 15, 2017 13:23:24 GMT -5
Not sure what has been changed, but the first set of spawns in the cave after the boat section pull together now. This means you step into the cave and get charged by a double-clutch of NPCs with 2-handed weapons.
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Post by Psionic-Entity on Jul 29, 2017 8:12:35 GMT -5
That part was designed as a single spawn, only one trigger.
Next update the large, open portion will have some adjustments that should add line of sight blocking to the walls in the sunken area.
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Post by gazoo on Aug 3, 2017 21:10:18 GMT -5
Having finally gotten to the underwater cave, I'd suggest a rest point at the entrance, immediately after the entry point. The ship fight is long and the Quelzarn is a tough bugger, so imho it warrants an xp save at this point, before the rest of the cave bashing.
Although between-rest timing might be an issue. Maybe this can be an auto-save after going down the rope?
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Post by Psionic-Entity on Aug 6, 2017 13:55:48 GMT -5
Going to do something a bit different. The boat area will become restable after the last fight and the NPC line will change from "hurry down the rope" to "rest up and then head down".
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Post by gazoo on Aug 21, 2017 20:03:07 GMT -5
She now says to "rest up" but
No area that I could find on the boat was able to initiate a rest. Every walkable spot was "no resting is allowed in this area"
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