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Post by Psionic-Entity on Jul 23, 2015 11:04:06 GMT -5
I think you're right to point out the fact that this is a beta, but in light of that your solution is probably not the best one. Having a broken economy all beta and wiping afterward accomplishes nothing because the same broken economy persists even after a reset. Getting it right ASAP is super important because it means not messing with it later. On the flip side there isn't as much irreversible damage from launching with an ability that needs a balance update.
Practically this means that economy related changes will be frequent, feedback on the current build will be very valuable, and anything based on whether it was easier/harder to get cash in week one of beta will not be so useful. The goal is to get stable enough to keep character wealth pretty constant from beta to full launch.
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Post by mireigi on Jul 23, 2015 13:11:51 GMT -5
Of course the economy shouldn't be terrible, to either side. But it also shouldn't hold back the testing. With the recent changes, it's difficult to amass enough wealth to keep all items up to par. No one wants to farm for 10 hours to upgrade a single item slot by 2 levels so that they can keep gaining skill increases at a reasonable pace. The same goes for crafting, which is currently expensive to level from what I've heard.
It's a balance, and I think it was the wrong move to lower the overall income from current avenues without introducing new ones at the same time.
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Genbor
Gumshoe
"If you die, don't come crying to me about it."
Posts: 81
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Post by Genbor on Jul 23, 2015 13:16:46 GMT -5
Wow, I have just realized that the vendors buying items price dropped even LOWER than before, which I didn't think was possible. The whole economy has crashed I see. I'm sure there's a valid reasoning behind this change, but simply put this is daylight robbery, and while it might work on paper, in practice it's completely preposterous. I was struggling to make money when I could sell items for 200, because I just didn't go grind for loot. Then the prices dropped, and occasionally I made a few bucks but I never, and I repeat, never have gone beyond 360 bucks in total. Now the pricing is so low, that it's impossible to craft.
I would sincerely like to ask that either change this, or change the costs of crafting. It seems like everything is being done in power to scare away new players, and a broken economy is one of the best way to do this. After grinding in the Graveyard for an hour, I managed to make 50 bucks, which is just barely enough for me to craft a Carbine (1) and buy some bullets for it. I am an incredibly sad panda. Here's hoping the next update fixes this, or at least we get some kind of reasonable explanation. At least with that, we can put the issue up for debate.
EDIT: I apologize if I come off a bit too strong, was just crying tears of frustration at my poverty when I wrote this.
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Post by masovius on Jul 23, 2015 15:41:07 GMT -5
, feedback on the current build will be very valuable,
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Post by sareth675 on Jul 23, 2015 16:04:07 GMT -5
I can't do it anymore. I just spent 5.5k bucks, so 55k GP on making armor. I got... 2/3rds of level 19 to 20 armoring. I can't do it! Even with my bonus exp. Crafting is now impossible. There's no other way I can put it. Cash gain has to be increased drastically or else no one will ever see proficiency level 30 crafters.
EDIT: Scratch the bonus EXP part, I didn't burn any bonus exp into crafting proficiency.... it's still not using it up.
EDIT 2: I think I'll clear some stuff up as to provide proper feedback about the current build.
5.5k Bucks was how much I spent to increase armoring.
That is the total amount of cash that was made, by 3 players, pooling both resources and time. The time spent was the majority of today. Collectively? About 10 hours of today, spent almost exclusively grinding. For 5.5k bucks, collectively. All that money, from 3 characters, went to 1 character, to increase crafting exp. For 2/3rds of my 19 to 20 armoring level.
It's not good. There's nothing good about those stats I just posted. If I have to spend 10 hours to get 2/3rds of a level of crafting that is not even 1/5th of the levels promised.... I don't think it will be humanly possible to hit the higher levels of crafting. Not unless the payouts of areas to be added are significantly higher. Read, significantly, as in, 3x what is coming in now.
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Post by judicator on Jul 23, 2015 16:56:09 GMT -5
Server economies are a delicate dance of monitoring all gold sources and the prices of every item in every store in addition to enabling crafting as the superior economic and mechanical option. Nothing anyone is complaining about relative to cash flow is an "easy" fix; even adjusting items in stores is a time-consuming process. There are other factors to consider, as well: how fast do they want people's skills to level up? Should time-in to skill progression be equal for weapon skills and crafting? Should crafting require a deeper time investment for equivalent scaling? How many hours of "hard" play invested before a target proficiency of x is achieved?
Cost of supplies can be mitigated by careful tactical execution and cost adjustments in stores and in crafting.
Gold income seems to be hampered by the larger parties I'm seeing people run around in. This is due to there being few dungeons, many players, so people cluster so everyone can have a crack at it. Maybe the dungeons could be instanced to alleviate this. There's also an opportunity to increase PC incomes relative to the jobs they take (factions), and we have to consider where that income should fall in the spectrum.
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Post by mireigi on Jul 23, 2015 17:44:22 GMT -5
Gold income seems to be hampered by the larger parties I'm seeing people run around in. This is due to there being few dungeons, many players, so people cluster so everyone can have a crack at it. Maybe the dungeons could be instanced to alleviate this. There's also an opportunity to increase PC incomes relative to the jobs they take (factions), and we have to consider where that income should fall in the spectrum. The number of players in the same party dictates the difficulty of an area. The more difficult an area, the more and better loot drops. The issue currently is that running solo gives too little loot to be feasable, while running in a group gives too little payoff due to the splitting of coins. Some builds are also forced to go with groups since they are not viable as solo builds. That means that they do not gain any income outside of the shared loot. To top it off, with crafting being what it is currently, there are no way for these builds to gain any sort of reliable income. Certainly not after gambling was nerfed hard.
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Post by sareth675 on Jul 23, 2015 17:58:05 GMT -5
Gambling is also a luck based thing of course, no matter how good you are at cards or dice, end of the day it's luck. People don't want their main source of income to be based on "luck"... I doubt. We need something reliable. And I don't think Faction paychecks are going to be enough. Thus, we're back to adventuring. Unless Faction paychecks are yearly and the Coppers are going to see a nice 30k bucks in their bank account?
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Post by mireigi on Jul 23, 2015 18:02:43 GMT -5
Gambling is also a luck based thing of course, no matter how good you are at cards or dice, end of the day it's luck. Excactly, which is why it needs to pay off better. Reducing the pot size to roughly 25% on average was way too harsh considering there's a lot of luck involved too. Doubling the current blinds and bids/raises would be enough to make it worthwhile to gamble. So long as you're not getting bent over by lady luck of course.
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Post by skyblu on Jul 23, 2015 18:20:34 GMT -5
Gambling is also a luck based thing of course, no matter how good you are at cards or dice, end of the day it's luck. People don't want their main source of income to be based on "luck"... I doubt. We need something reliable. And I don't think Faction paychecks are going to be enough. Thus, we're back to adventuring. Unless Faction paychecks are yearly and the Coppers are going to see a nice 30k bucks in their bank account? Texas holdem isn't just luck when it comes to making a profit (not just winning hands). good players will always win money off bad players in the long run even with equal luck and the AI are pretty terrible so...
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Post by sareth675 on Jul 23, 2015 18:44:14 GMT -5
They are pretty bad indeed, but as I posted in another thread, I played about 50 hands and only got 1 hand higher than a 'high card', so I lost lots on blind bets. Thus, it's still a game of luck. You can be as good as you like, but sometimes you just get shat on by chance. And I'd like to be able to make money without relying on chance and bad poker AI.
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Cash flow
Jul 23, 2015 21:03:05 GMT -5
via mobile
Post by skyblu on Jul 23, 2015 21:03:05 GMT -5
They are pretty bad indeed, but as I posted in another thread, I played about 50 hands and only got 1 hand higher than a 'high card', so I lost lots on blind bets. Thus, it's still a game of luck. You can be as good as you like, but sometimes you just get shat on by chance. And I'd like to be able to make money without relying on chance and bad poker AI. I've had runs of bad luck butin the long run theres no way to lose money using a proper stratgy. the bots call and raise wayyy too much so this is how you can get money off them - call everything pre flop no matter what opening 2 cards you get. never ever ever fold pre flop. but if you get a pocket pair (rare) then start raising straight away - if you get anything on the flop, even a low value pair, then raise non stop. sometimes youll lose the hand but you'll win more money in the long run - if you dont get anything on the flop, fold straight away- dont hope for a lucky card! follow my strategy and youre sure to win money
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Genbor
Gumshoe
"If you die, don't come crying to me about it."
Posts: 81
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Post by Genbor on Jul 23, 2015 22:24:25 GMT -5
The thing with Poker is that it's as much a gambling game as a lying game. You are constantly trying to decieve opponents and have them question your every move, and if you are good at influencing people, you will have a better chance of winning the whole game. This is why Poker is great. The problem with playing Poker against AI's is that the way to influence them solely depends on how they were scripted. There are no fake-tells of bluffing etc., just fold/raise/call, and the only one to psychologically have any success on putting pressure on others is the Big Bully, also know as the person who has the most amount of chips/cash at hand. So no, in a computer game I agree with sareth675, you can be as good as you want and still get shat on.
The biggest problem is the cost of crafting itself, is what I feel. The crafting has been simplified, yes, but not made Crafter friendly. Buying the ingots/ingredients is easy work, but if you wish to make an item you better prepare your anal flaps because you won't have any cash to make them. In all honestly I'd prefer it if there was no crafting costs, but instead you have to procure your ingredients yourself, or from other players. Gathering professions, or just if we take Blacksmithing etc., you could melt down items like swords, chainmail and anything that's metal to gain some ingots and get rid of the useless junk in your inventory from the previous loot run (seeing how selling the junk is in no way beneficial to you).
I think this is mostly because Crafting was made into a money sink, something that higher level and wealthier players could invest time into, as opposed to a way to make money itself like in every other game. Money Sink vs Money Maker; a Craftsman sure as hell doesn't craft because he likes spending money to create something, but that they hope to earn a living from it, which in the current build is not possible. (Unless there was a quick update to fix this, that I don't know of yet)
EDIT: Really was an update incoming, much love to you developers! <3
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Post by skyblu on Jul 24, 2015 0:10:18 GMT -5
So no, in a computer game I agree with sareth675, you can be as good as you want and still get shat on. >.> ok. i must be the luckiest person in the world then because i managed to make in the thousands of dollars from it (but since the update it takes wayyy longer to make money because of the reduced bets so it's probably not possible anymore if you start now)
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Post by Nippon on Jul 24, 2015 2:56:27 GMT -5
Post update I sat there for an hour and a half and made 500 bones. I love poker though, not many will sit at a table that long.
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