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Stealth
Jun 6, 2017 13:44:08 GMT -5
Post by Rekov on Jun 6, 2017 13:44:08 GMT -5
I may write something up about Sneak Attacks later, but this seems like a simpler issue.
What is intended target for stealth? How reliable should it be?
At present my character has 40 stealth, with Hide (II) and Move Silently (II), wearing leather armor (8 + 3 Stealth). Stealth currently is unreliable at best. In Waterfall Mine (35-50) my character gets detected by almost all mobs given enough time, even when standing still. I have managed to build sneak attack fully, but often I get detected before I do.
In Undercity (20-30) my character is also gets detected quite often. If I'm walking through the sewers, I will usually get detected by one or two sewer rats. I know animals have better detect, but at what point should a character be able to sneak past them?
I'm trying to get a sense for what the intended goal here is with regards to stealth. It's an all or nothing ability, so I can understand how being completely undetectable would be too powerful, but it's hard to do that without ending up in the 'nothing' box.
Right now it seems like something that can sometimes save you from a bad situation. You can smoke out of a losing fight, and if you're lucky you can get away before you're detected. Stealth doesn't currently seem viable as a means of sneaking past enemies though.
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Post by Lugwy on Jun 7, 2017 16:22:40 GMT -5
The issue appears to be that all mobs spawn with Detect enabled (that they turn off when moving to engage). Being spotted within a couple of rounds even with full stealthing investment is within the norm if the spotter has 4-6? chances per round to detect you, especially if they're facing you and the area is well-lit.
If there's a suggestion I can make on this front, it would be to make Detect enabled on only a select few mob types in a given spawn (perhaps only universally enabled on critters), while the rest have it turned off, since even in reality there's not many groups where every single person is hyper-vigilant for intruders all the time. Humanoid mobs with Detect enabled on spawn could be labeled something like "lookout" or "sentry" or so on to denote that they're especially aware and are more likely to spot a stealther.
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Stealth
Jun 7, 2017 17:15:23 GMT -5
Post by gazoo on Jun 7, 2017 17:15:23 GMT -5
^detection tweak as above is good idea.
I wanted to further suggest that the pool accumulation not only accumulate bleed, but also a pure physical boost for the strike.
Keep in mind that even at full pool the strike may miss or even more frustrating, not penetrate DR. And as mentioned it currently can often be more effective to armor up and attack each round, rather than waiting for a spread out bleed that may not happen.
If pool accumulated +x phys per pool point [or threshold] in addition to bleed, it would be significantly beneficial to spend the time to max the pool and as a result, pursue the feats involved. Further weapons such as daggers, hammers, and shortswords might be attractive for the strike.
Currently stealth skill level adds to the pool, so that might need to be tweaked in preference of only those with the dedicated feats receiving this benefit.
For example: With full feats: I could envision this adding 50 [or more] to the physical damage. Keep in mind that you may need to pool 5r [or so] to get that.
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Stealth
Jun 7, 2017 17:20:31 GMT -5
via mobile
Post by modular on Jun 7, 2017 17:20:31 GMT -5
What if, on absorbed hits, there was a proc for a different, non-damage effect - AN or Dodge or Block penalty - in line with the severity of the potential sneak attack? Then there is at least some benefit even on absorbs.
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Stealth
Jun 7, 2017 18:20:52 GMT -5
Post by Lugwy on Jun 7, 2017 18:20:52 GMT -5
The above two suggestions seem more topical with the Sneak Attack topic. (Though it might be a better course of action to just merge the two topics, since they're two sides of the same die.)
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Stealth
Jun 11, 2017 19:13:58 GMT -5
Post by Rekov on Jun 11, 2017 19:13:58 GMT -5
To demonstrate the problem somewhat, I just recorded a pair of short clips from Waterfall Mine. As soon as I'm in range to start building sneak, I get detected, basically. This isn't always the case, and sometimes I can maintain stealth for 15-20 seconds, but it isn't consistent enough to ever be relied upon.
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Stealth
Jun 11, 2017 19:24:07 GMT -5
Post by Psionic-Entity on Jun 11, 2017 19:24:07 GMT -5
What was your stealth score there?
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Stealth
Jun 11, 2017 19:37:56 GMT -5
Post by Rekov on Jun 11, 2017 19:37:56 GMT -5
The thing on the character sheet was 13.
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Stealth
Jun 11, 2017 19:54:02 GMT -5
via mobile
Post by Kitsunenotsume on Jun 11, 2017 19:54:02 GMT -5
And any noise penalty?
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Stealth
Jun 11, 2017 20:00:55 GMT -5
Post by Rekov on Jun 11, 2017 20:00:55 GMT -5
I don't know what it would be coming from. Wearing all leather/padded armor. Moving makes the detection much quicker, but even when standing still I get detected.
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Stealth
Jun 11, 2017 21:44:58 GMT -5
via mobile
Post by Kitsunenotsume on Jun 11, 2017 21:44:58 GMT -5
So -2 noise penalty, unless you have Sound Dampened on armor.
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Stealth
Jun 11, 2017 21:53:02 GMT -5
Post by Psionic-Entity on Jun 11, 2017 21:53:02 GMT -5
If it's just hearing they can't attack you like that.
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Stealth
Jun 11, 2017 22:19:21 GMT -5
Post by Kaybrie on Jun 11, 2017 22:19:21 GMT -5
My experience with what was going on with stealth was similar to what Rekov has recorded there. Normally enemies would attack me the moment I entered their range, so long as they had line of sight. Though sometimes I'd be given a couple rounds to move about before they would spot me.
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Stealth
Jun 11, 2017 22:29:38 GMT -5
Post by electrohydra on Jun 11, 2017 22:29:38 GMT -5
My experience has been... slightly better, but not by a ton. I also feel like the reward isn't really worth it, especially when speaking of feat investments. Stealth without Flanking Attack (Flanking Attack is solid and useful) feels like a very large investment with little payoff. You need to invest 1-3 feats (The Sneak Attack feats themselves, plus possibly Hide/Move Silently lines) to do what... an extra 2-3 damage per tier in the whole fight? That's pretty minimal when you need to do 100 (minimum) damage total. And that's assuming your sneak attack isn't blocked by armor.
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Stealth
Jun 11, 2017 22:31:23 GMT -5
Post by Kaybrie on Jun 11, 2017 22:31:23 GMT -5
Need a damage counter in game to spell out how much damage sneak attacks actually do imo, since the experiences regarding how impactful they are seem to vary widely, and having some hard numbers would be undeniably helpful in how well they are practically implemented.
Edit; Is Detect Mode hard coded? Or could we open it up so it doesn't spam detection attempts as much?
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