Post by Kitsunenotsume on Jul 15, 2017 19:31:35 GMT -5
We have recently had modifications to the damage falloff system;
to make it a little more similar across different grenade types, based on percentage of distance from max range.
Curious about how this worked in practice, I decided to run some tests.
Setting up a testing field using my characters target marker as a unit of measurement (small with no shield) I set up the the following field using first-aid-kits (an irony I noted later):
I'm not really sure what the distance is between the bags on the ground, but it's at least consistent, and I observed the following damage at various ranges from grenades I had available:
A few notes when regarding this chart:
The distances were chosen as either eyeballed halfway either to the centre or the ring on the edge of the target template of various classes of grenade.
0.5 bags was the halfway mark for concussive, 1 bag was the edge of concussive template and approx. halfway for frags and pellets, 2.1 bags were the edge for frags and approx. halfway for bombs, and 3.5 bags was the edge ring for bombs.
I opted against testing pyro/acid Fog, as due to being field effects don't have a damage falloff I have noted.
Given who I play, Tesla bomb data is questionable, as I have both heavy armor (a damage increase) and electrical absorb/reduction gear (a decrease) but I kept the same gear throughout testing.
Also somewhat relevant, I do have 55 demo and 2 damage increase abilities (in theory a 75% increase over the baseline).
Pellet grenades seem to have their own falloff in the form of the ray-trace mechanic - they deal roughly the same damage at all ranges if they hit, but the chance of dealing no damage instead increases with distance.
After working through this data, I have noted a few things, most of which seem to highlight the relative inferiority of bombs compared to other demolitions:
Frags are optimal for damage against light targets, dealing the most raw damage (but mitigated by armor); Bombs and their monolithic elemental component are best used against heavily armored targets from a pure damage perspective; practically, Concussives let you deal with heavy armor without nuking your party, because almost everything with heavy armor will be in melee.
Cryo-frags now deal, on average, just a little bit more than normal frags (rounding error?) instead of almost double, and are half armor-ignoring. Still seem worth the ability investment over normal frags.
Bombs are primarily useful if you can get someone within half the radius of the centre, likely at the cost of hitting allies: the damage at the edge is not worth costing twice as much as concussives or frags. On the other hand, given the longer fuse, shorter range, higher throwing DC, and larger radius, the chance of missing your intended target and/or hitting the party is greatly increased - when damage-on-target is only marginally higher if successful. The larger radius can do damage to spread-out groups, but in effectively all situations the group of mobs the party is fighting will either fit entirely within the blast of a frag or concussive, or will be far enough apart that a bomb cannot hit more targets than the others.
Even with hitting allies, bombs only appear to be superior in the event that a large quantity of foes can be forced to congregate near the party but not in melee range. Suffice to say, this seems like a niche use for a heavier and more costly explosive, and can still be better dealt with by basic frags which will land accurately.
In terms of falloff (the initial reason for the chart), it looks like Bombs attenuate towards zero, Frags attenuate to about 40% , and concussive attenuate around 80%.
While understandable, this reasonably affects what is used in melee-close range. Concussive Grenades might be better with a steeper falloff, as (for myself, at least) even clipping a mob is just as good as hitting them head on, and both grant stun - a steeper falloff would make indirect hits less reliable for stun (presuming that stun is still reliant on damage). Bombs seem to lack oomph, and the near-zero damage at the edge I see is good, but might benefit from a slightly higher initial damage in the middle to justify cost, tactical use difficulty, and the concept of a bomb being more threatening to, well, everyone, than a standard pineapple. Frags seem to be in a good place for their damage profile.
*Pretty sure I died at least 30 times making this chart, twice bugging out the death script, and used up at least 100 grenades. #forScience.
Curious about how this worked in practice, I decided to run some tests.
Setting up a testing field using my characters target marker as a unit of measurement (small with no shield) I set up the the following field using first-aid-kits (an irony I noted later):
I'm not really sure what the distance is between the bags on the ground, but it's at least consistent, and I observed the following damage at various ranges from grenades I had available:
| Distance in bags -> | 0 | 0.5 | 1 | 2.1 | 3.5 |
| Concussive (AP Physical) | 30 AP | 29 AP | 24 AP | None | None |
| Frag (Physical) | 52-56 P | 43-48 P | 38-39 P | 19-20 P | None |
| Cryo-Frag (Physical/Cold) | 31-34 P / 26-38 C | 28 P / 23-34 C | 22-24 P / 19-20 C | 12-13 P / 11 C | None |
| Tesla Bomb (Electrical) | 29-35+ E | 31-32+ E | 12-29+ E | 12-20+ E | 6-8+ E |
| Cryo Bomb (Cold) | 36-38 C | 33-34 C | 29 C | 23-25 C | 5-9 C |
| | | | | | |
| Pellet (Scatter Physical) | 31-42 P | -noTest- | Miss-34 P | Miss-39 P | none |
| Lightning Pellet (Scatter P/E) | 15-33 P / 6 E | -noTest- | Miss-32 P / 6 E | Miss-25 P / 6 E | none |
A few notes when regarding this chart:
The distances were chosen as either eyeballed halfway either to the centre or the ring on the edge of the target template of various classes of grenade.
0.5 bags was the halfway mark for concussive, 1 bag was the edge of concussive template and approx. halfway for frags and pellets, 2.1 bags were the edge for frags and approx. halfway for bombs, and 3.5 bags was the edge ring for bombs.
I opted against testing pyro/acid Fog, as due to being field effects don't have a damage falloff I have noted.
Given who I play, Tesla bomb data is questionable, as I have both heavy armor (a damage increase) and electrical absorb/reduction gear (a decrease) but I kept the same gear throughout testing.
Also somewhat relevant, I do have 55 demo and 2 damage increase abilities (in theory a 75% increase over the baseline).
Pellet grenades seem to have their own falloff in the form of the ray-trace mechanic - they deal roughly the same damage at all ranges if they hit, but the chance of dealing no damage instead increases with distance.
After working through this data, I have noted a few things, most of which seem to highlight the relative inferiority of bombs compared to other demolitions:
Frags are optimal for damage against light targets, dealing the most raw damage (but mitigated by armor); Bombs and their monolithic elemental component are best used against heavily armored targets from a pure damage perspective; practically, Concussives let you deal with heavy armor without nuking your party, because almost everything with heavy armor will be in melee.
Cryo-frags now deal, on average, just a little bit more than normal frags (rounding error?) instead of almost double, and are half armor-ignoring. Still seem worth the ability investment over normal frags.
Bombs are primarily useful if you can get someone within half the radius of the centre, likely at the cost of hitting allies: the damage at the edge is not worth costing twice as much as concussives or frags. On the other hand, given the longer fuse, shorter range, higher throwing DC, and larger radius, the chance of missing your intended target and/or hitting the party is greatly increased - when damage-on-target is only marginally higher if successful. The larger radius can do damage to spread-out groups, but in effectively all situations the group of mobs the party is fighting will either fit entirely within the blast of a frag or concussive, or will be far enough apart that a bomb cannot hit more targets than the others.
Even with hitting allies, bombs only appear to be superior in the event that a large quantity of foes can be forced to congregate near the party but not in melee range. Suffice to say, this seems like a niche use for a heavier and more costly explosive, and can still be better dealt with by basic frags which will land accurately.
In terms of falloff (the initial reason for the chart), it looks like Bombs attenuate towards zero, Frags attenuate to about 40% , and concussive attenuate around 80%.
While understandable, this reasonably affects what is used in melee-close range. Concussive Grenades might be better with a steeper falloff, as (for myself, at least) even clipping a mob is just as good as hitting them head on, and both grant stun - a steeper falloff would make indirect hits less reliable for stun (presuming that stun is still reliant on damage). Bombs seem to lack oomph, and the near-zero damage at the edge I see is good, but might benefit from a slightly higher initial damage in the middle to justify cost, tactical use difficulty, and the concept of a bomb being more threatening to, well, everyone, than a standard pineapple. Frags seem to be in a good place for their damage profile.
*Pretty sure I died at least 30 times making this chart, twice bugging out the death script, and used up at least 100 grenades. #forScience.
