Post by Kitsunenotsume on Jul 31, 2017 12:54:50 GMT -5
First off, I will say that I really like the idea of the the Flamethrower and other hybrid weapons.
That said, they don't really seem to have much relation to the weapon-card.
I can use Igniters (rank 57) and deal anywhere from 16-26 damage that shows up immediately, and then the long DoT does 2-4 a damage tick and burns down from there.
With the Flamethrower, the damage starts at 1, and ramps up over time, capping out (for me) at 7 damage a tick, 3 times a round, but it takes 2 rounds to build up to get there. with a rank 69 Flame-thrower, the weapon-card lists 17-26 damage, but I'm not sure that the 26 is possible, and my median of 20 damage on a focused target is only possible due to my 30-second-capacity and Demo Damage investments. When I have seen other PCs attempt to replicate, they often get much much lower damage and fail to reach the maximum damage-per-tick of the weapon in the 16 seconds of fuel they have available.
My suspicion for the reason behind this is that the weapon is dealing it's (11-20)+6 damage to the creature's fire-damage-pool, and that each tick is dealing 10% or so of the current pool - possibly without dealing any 'Direct Damage' (from a player perspective, Direct Damage is applied on-hit, while Pool-Damage is applied on-tick; we don't have any visibility into how damage gets applied if that is not the case). However, without feedback of pool damage this feels significantly less potent than other fire-demo weapons that deal an initial damage burst, and then begin to tick from the pool. Due to the 2-round ramp time, much of the time spent with the flamethrower active requires focusing on an area without disruption, and relies on the enemies remaining within the cone and not attacking the user to force auto-turn.
Compared to a scorcher, the Flamethrower has a much lower fuel-efficiency, (50 oil/16 seconds is almost 19 oil per 6-secs, compared to 8 oil per 6-secs), and seems to break from the standard fire paradigm of "Moderate initial burst, long slower DoT" and instead uses a "No initial damage, ramping DoT" that acid does a lot better.
I'm not really sure what the solution is here, as by nature elemental damage is armor-ignoring and damage is on-par with physical weapons that are subject to armor (but get crits). I think that the current Flamethrower pool-based damage would work great for Acid which relies on ramping and being continuously re-applied, but does not seem as thematic or consistent for Fire - which usually seems to do a small burst with a long trail. Cryo and Electrical would become flat out absurd if they applied the full damage to everything in a cone every round at a similar damage profile simply from the massive area-of-effect burst-damage that would be capable of but due to their damage types would see no ramp or benefit to sustained fire over single-shot-bursts.
Not knowing the actual implementation, I have toyed around in my head with a series of possible solutions that could improve the consistency across the various elements, hopefully without sending their strengths and while improving tangible reward for action-investment.
1) Give all the weapons a direct-damage component that applies once-a-round - this caters to player-gratification by removing the initial "1, 2, 3" ticks and means that you have accomplished something even if you get shot a second later and waste the rest of the fuel for the round from the forced-turn.
2) Lower the weapon's secondary/sustained-fire damage - the direct-damage component would mean more armor-ignoring damage going out in a shorter time, leaving this unchanged with #1 implemented would make it horrendously overpowered compared to people stuck with traditional weapons for damage-bursts.
3) Have all sustained-fire weapons apply a stacking debuff (for perhaps 2 rounds) - for elements, perhaps a cumulative 5-10% vulnerability per round; permitting synergistic parties to capitalise on single elements, while allowing individuals to benefit from focusing on targets they have already hit with the weapon; if bullet-based weapons were included, perhaps a slowing effect from pinning-fires, etcetera.
Side Note is that this would effectively convert Gadgeteer into a direct damage increase for Demo-Hybrid weapons, beyond just the larger magazine.
I recommend 2 rounds, because it means that a round without being in the effect (due to turn-off, reload, or just running) should make the debuff drop off; it could also mean that a pair of coordinated players could stagger their reloads to keep the debuff active.
In theory, the net result would be slightly lower damage-per-round initially but in more player-appreciated chunks, with the potential for a higher damage-per-round across all types if sustained.
That said, there are almost certainly other methods, and the instigation of these observations are primarily from discussing with players who pursue giant damage numbers, rather than the death-by-DoT I find quite potent, so it is fairly possible that the underlying premise is flawed. I for one find it rather satisfying to blast 8 mobs with a flamethrower and watch the stream of red-damage text cap at 7s for half of them, but I can agree that needing to burn 30-40 oil and 2 rounds to see it is lackluster and expensive compared to my other options.
I (and presumably PE as well) would be interested to hear other player's experience and 'feels' of the Flamethrower and what tweaks it and its future siblings might warrant; because as a freshly implemented weapon with new mechanics it almost certainly does.
Cheers,
Kit
That said, they don't really seem to have much relation to the weapon-card.
I can use Igniters (rank 57) and deal anywhere from 16-26 damage that shows up immediately, and then the long DoT does 2-4 a damage tick and burns down from there.
With the Flamethrower, the damage starts at 1, and ramps up over time, capping out (for me) at 7 damage a tick, 3 times a round, but it takes 2 rounds to build up to get there. with a rank 69 Flame-thrower, the weapon-card lists 17-26 damage, but I'm not sure that the 26 is possible, and my median of 20 damage on a focused target is only possible due to my 30-second-capacity and Demo Damage investments. When I have seen other PCs attempt to replicate, they often get much much lower damage and fail to reach the maximum damage-per-tick of the weapon in the 16 seconds of fuel they have available.
My suspicion for the reason behind this is that the weapon is dealing it's (11-20)+6 damage to the creature's fire-damage-pool, and that each tick is dealing 10% or so of the current pool - possibly without dealing any 'Direct Damage' (from a player perspective, Direct Damage is applied on-hit, while Pool-Damage is applied on-tick; we don't have any visibility into how damage gets applied if that is not the case). However, without feedback of pool damage this feels significantly less potent than other fire-demo weapons that deal an initial damage burst, and then begin to tick from the pool. Due to the 2-round ramp time, much of the time spent with the flamethrower active requires focusing on an area without disruption, and relies on the enemies remaining within the cone and not attacking the user to force auto-turn.
Compared to a scorcher, the Flamethrower has a much lower fuel-efficiency, (50 oil/16 seconds is almost 19 oil per 6-secs, compared to 8 oil per 6-secs), and seems to break from the standard fire paradigm of "Moderate initial burst, long slower DoT" and instead uses a "No initial damage, ramping DoT" that acid does a lot better.
I'm not really sure what the solution is here, as by nature elemental damage is armor-ignoring and damage is on-par with physical weapons that are subject to armor (but get crits). I think that the current Flamethrower pool-based damage would work great for Acid which relies on ramping and being continuously re-applied, but does not seem as thematic or consistent for Fire - which usually seems to do a small burst with a long trail. Cryo and Electrical would become flat out absurd if they applied the full damage to everything in a cone every round at a similar damage profile simply from the massive area-of-effect burst-damage that would be capable of but due to their damage types would see no ramp or benefit to sustained fire over single-shot-bursts.
Not knowing the actual implementation, I have toyed around in my head with a series of possible solutions that could improve the consistency across the various elements, hopefully without sending their strengths and while improving tangible reward for action-investment.
1) Give all the weapons a direct-damage component that applies once-a-round - this caters to player-gratification by removing the initial "1, 2, 3" ticks and means that you have accomplished something even if you get shot a second later and waste the rest of the fuel for the round from the forced-turn.
2) Lower the weapon's secondary/sustained-fire damage - the direct-damage component would mean more armor-ignoring damage going out in a shorter time, leaving this unchanged with #1 implemented would make it horrendously overpowered compared to people stuck with traditional weapons for damage-bursts.
3) Have all sustained-fire weapons apply a stacking debuff (for perhaps 2 rounds) - for elements, perhaps a cumulative 5-10% vulnerability per round; permitting synergistic parties to capitalise on single elements, while allowing individuals to benefit from focusing on targets they have already hit with the weapon; if bullet-based weapons were included, perhaps a slowing effect from pinning-fires, etcetera.
Side Note is that this would effectively convert Gadgeteer into a direct damage increase for Demo-Hybrid weapons, beyond just the larger magazine.
I recommend 2 rounds, because it means that a round without being in the effect (due to turn-off, reload, or just running) should make the debuff drop off; it could also mean that a pair of coordinated players could stagger their reloads to keep the debuff active.
In theory, the net result would be slightly lower damage-per-round initially but in more player-appreciated chunks, with the potential for a higher damage-per-round across all types if sustained.
That said, there are almost certainly other methods, and the instigation of these observations are primarily from discussing with players who pursue giant damage numbers, rather than the death-by-DoT I find quite potent, so it is fairly possible that the underlying premise is flawed. I for one find it rather satisfying to blast 8 mobs with a flamethrower and watch the stream of red-damage text cap at 7s for half of them, but I can agree that needing to burn 30-40 oil and 2 rounds to see it is lackluster and expensive compared to my other options.
I (and presumably PE as well) would be interested to hear other player's experience and 'feels' of the Flamethrower and what tweaks it and its future siblings might warrant; because as a freshly implemented weapon with new mechanics it almost certainly does.
Cheers,
Kit
