Post by drunkensolamnic on Oct 9, 2017 23:31:03 GMT -5
After talking to PE, going to try to come at this again.
My experience with the higher level dungeons has been that groups of creatures attacking 4+ times a round can become overwhelming. Specifically, when duel wielders are past level 50, with all of their extra attacks and then spawn in to a 1 to 1 ratio to a normal party of PCs the difficulty level of the dungeon does not stay consistent, nor does it increase in a straight line, but rather a curve.
To explain most PCs do not dual wield, but we'll assume for sake of argument 1/3rd of PCs do. This means each dual wielding npc that spawns for each melee PC, there is a 2/3d's chance that the NPC is going to add 2x as many attacks into each combat round. Most PCs seem to favor 2-3 shot per round ranged weapons as well, due to armor and dodge values prohibiting higher RPM weapons in higher levels. This means that for each ranged PC in the party, they are also adding an NPC that adds 2x more offensive potential than they do by sheer number of attacks. The end result is that a party of 5 PCs following the line of 2-melee, 2-ranged, 1 support will be facing roughly 8-10 PCs worth of incoming attacks each round, and that tends to get primariy focused at just one person, if not both the melee characters.
Put simply, most characters cannot deal with the sheer level of incoming attacks, and in addition the armor-roll generating engine seems to be unable to keep up as well. This means when it stutters a bad armor roll can be given back for multiple attacks, turning what was a manageable engagement into a party wipe as suddenly one PC is down and another is badly injured.
The only real solution we've found in gameplay to this problem is to turn to grenades as a means of applying DPS in excess of what the dual wielders are able to put out. This works as it is easier to hit the DC of the grenade to place it than it is to hit the dodge value of the higher level light-armor NPCs, with the added benefit of grenades doing the damage to multiple targets. When this solution works, its when the number of dual wielders can be effective reduced to a manageable number before the melee PCs fold. This means the encounters become monotonous repeats of the same fight over and over.
We saw a similar problem with Wyler in lower levels, though less pronounced as those spawns use a variety of armaments meaning it is a chance that they dual wield, use a 2-handed weapon, or show with a shield and sword.
I would suggest the higher level content (Pirate Cove and anything else that may be added later) make it a point to have a varied armament in each spawn to avoid the problem as it stands now in the Pirate Cove. If the spawns were a mixture of dual wielding pirates, the tankly Pirate enforcers, and pirates using 2-handed weapons such as a spear or trident (makes sense for the marine theme) or even spawned with a scimitar to use 2-handed... this would do much to make the fights more manageable, more enjoyable, and requiring more than liberal application of frag-grenades to overcome.
My experience with the higher level dungeons has been that groups of creatures attacking 4+ times a round can become overwhelming. Specifically, when duel wielders are past level 50, with all of their extra attacks and then spawn in to a 1 to 1 ratio to a normal party of PCs the difficulty level of the dungeon does not stay consistent, nor does it increase in a straight line, but rather a curve.
To explain most PCs do not dual wield, but we'll assume for sake of argument 1/3rd of PCs do. This means each dual wielding npc that spawns for each melee PC, there is a 2/3d's chance that the NPC is going to add 2x as many attacks into each combat round. Most PCs seem to favor 2-3 shot per round ranged weapons as well, due to armor and dodge values prohibiting higher RPM weapons in higher levels. This means that for each ranged PC in the party, they are also adding an NPC that adds 2x more offensive potential than they do by sheer number of attacks. The end result is that a party of 5 PCs following the line of 2-melee, 2-ranged, 1 support will be facing roughly 8-10 PCs worth of incoming attacks each round, and that tends to get primariy focused at just one person, if not both the melee characters.
Put simply, most characters cannot deal with the sheer level of incoming attacks, and in addition the armor-roll generating engine seems to be unable to keep up as well. This means when it stutters a bad armor roll can be given back for multiple attacks, turning what was a manageable engagement into a party wipe as suddenly one PC is down and another is badly injured.
The only real solution we've found in gameplay to this problem is to turn to grenades as a means of applying DPS in excess of what the dual wielders are able to put out. This works as it is easier to hit the DC of the grenade to place it than it is to hit the dodge value of the higher level light-armor NPCs, with the added benefit of grenades doing the damage to multiple targets. When this solution works, its when the number of dual wielders can be effective reduced to a manageable number before the melee PCs fold. This means the encounters become monotonous repeats of the same fight over and over.
We saw a similar problem with Wyler in lower levels, though less pronounced as those spawns use a variety of armaments meaning it is a chance that they dual wield, use a 2-handed weapon, or show with a shield and sword.
I would suggest the higher level content (Pirate Cove and anything else that may be added later) make it a point to have a varied armament in each spawn to avoid the problem as it stands now in the Pirate Cove. If the spawns were a mixture of dual wielding pirates, the tankly Pirate enforcers, and pirates using 2-handed weapons such as a spear or trident (makes sense for the marine theme) or even spawned with a scimitar to use 2-handed... this would do much to make the fights more manageable, more enjoyable, and requiring more than liberal application of frag-grenades to overcome.
