jakunen
Gumshoe
Developer
Posts: 81
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Post by jakunen on Jul 24, 2015 6:21:02 GMT -5
I'm pretty certain the moment someone said "Let's make this a Steampunk setting!" that realism went out the door. If I wanted realism, I wouldn't be playing here. So playing the realism card seems unproductive to me. Given that the current guns consist of a revolver, carbine, rifle and shotgun, I'm fairly confident Cthulu wasn't talking about muskets and flintlocks here. None of these are something that armour would be helpful against. Honestly, we nerf the value of guns greatly just so that they fit in the setting and give melee weapons a proper place, and everyone's fine with that. I don't see the problem with going a similar route with armour and following the age-old tradition of balance, making all the armours equally viable in strengths and weaknesses, but catering to different things, etc. Realism aside, it just makes for better gameplay. I thought this thread was about adding an unarmored skill, not nerfing guns so that melee weapons are more favored. Where do people get off thinking that nerfing one group of peoples' skills is an acceptable way of adding to another group's skills...? On a stylistic note, I understand the desire to have an unarmored skill so that people don't have to be in their bulky metal armor 24/7 and aren't caught completely feeble without it. Maybe a possible fix could be combining the appearance models of cloth with the existing options (leather, hide, and padded IIRC) all together under light armor? I think none of the cloth appearances are available to any of the light armor templates right now. Either way people would be split between two skills (heavy/medium and light or heavy/medium and unarmored) but this way the devs don't have to add in another skill line and we don't have to argue about things like realism and nerfing weapons.
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Post by HelloCthulhu on Jul 24, 2015 7:31:22 GMT -5
And nations that fought against firearm bearing nations relying on armor lost, usually badly. Firearms were the end of the tincan knight. Armor did live on, yes, first losing anything but the most crucial protection, then adding more with heavier materials to provide protection. Ned Kelly's suit you see there is going to weigh considerably more than a knights suit of armor, because its made of different materials. Compare it to the fire team armor of Nazi Germany. Was it effective at stopping a bullet? Sure. It was heavy enough that any kind of battlefield mobility just wasn't an option. So yes, you can argue that the usage of armor vs. Firearms continued on, and it did, my fault for speaking in absolutes, but to think it continued on either unchanged, or anywhere near as effective as it was before that advent, is abysmally misguided.
All that aside, having unarmored be a viable choice shouldn't really be a problem. I'd guess it'd level at the same rate as unarmed, so its gonna be slightly slower than using appropriately levelled armor to level. I'd go with a much higher dodge chance, with 0 possibility to reduce damage. You're harder to hit, but when you do get hit, you just eat it, as opposed to getting lucky.
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Post by Fuzz on Jul 24, 2015 7:34:07 GMT -5
I dunno, plate would be hilariously effective against shotguns. Of the weapon options, the long guns and revolvers are the only guns that could punch through a half inch thick piece steel. Keep in mind that the funds are still basically mid to late 19th century affairs.
We also have shit like titanium, adamantium, and mithral plate armors, so none of it makes any realistic sense, but clothing is never going to be a replacement for armor simply because of how leveled equipment works. It would require us to implement leveled clothing, which means every single article of clothing your PCs wear would need to be replaced regularly. There's already enough of that, and I think the overall player experience will be detrimentally affected by leveled clothing.
At best, passive Light Armor talents and a few limited mods could be used with basic clothing. That'd be reasonable and make sense for a lot of mods, like camouflage.
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Post by tildryn on Jul 24, 2015 10:40:07 GMT -5
Given that the current guns consist of a revolver, carbine, rifle and shotgun, I'm fairly confident Cthulu wasn't talking about muskets and flintlocks here. None of these are something that armour would be helpful against. Honestly, we nerf the value of guns greatly just so that they fit in the setting and give melee weapons a proper place, and everyone's fine with that. I don't see the problem with going a similar route with armour and following the age-old tradition of balance, making all the armours equally viable in strengths and weaknesses, but catering to different things, etc. Realism aside, it just makes for better gameplay. Melee is actually vastly superior to guns. I don't think we need to go over-favouring Light Armour by making it the casualwear of choice, same with adding an Unarmoured. Unless you make the heavier armours outright superior to the lighter ones in combat, it's rather lame to make the lighter armours equal in combat and superior in casual attire.
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Post by kingofaquilonia on Jul 24, 2015 15:53:59 GMT -5
I believe the idea of guns on the server was supposed to be something you open with and then switch to a melee weapon as people close in.
That being said I don't believe Serenade was saying to nerf guns, they were saying that guns are nerfed here in comparison to how effective they'd be. Which isn't entirely true, especially as things get more developed and we move into the higher grade metals. A breastplate won't entirely stop a bullet but it'll reduce it to a very minor flesh wound in alot of cases
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Post by electrohydra on Aug 11, 2015 15:56:48 GMT -5
Bump. If we could make cloth at least not have 10 AC would be nice. I was stuck fighting in cloth the other day and it's not very pretty.
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Post by ladylightning on Aug 12, 2015 3:45:04 GMT -5
I would love to see an unarmored option -- though honestly, I think the best way of doing this is simply to give cloth the following base stats:
~~Cloth~~ Light Armor Armor Bonus: 0 Dodge: 18 Noise Penalty: 0 Range Penalty: 0
For comparison, the lightest current light armor...
~~Padded Armor~~ Light Armor Armor Bonus: 4 (or 5, I forget) Dodge: 16 Noise Penalty: -1 Range Penalty: 0
Since it would use the same light armor skill we already have, you would simply be trading away 4 or 5 DR for 2 AC. The main difference is that it would allow dodgy PCs more than two appearance options.
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Post by Fuzz on Aug 12, 2015 6:12:04 GMT -5
Again, the issue with giving clothing stats is that level is intrinsic to gear on this server, so you'd need to start upgrading your pants to keep up with your armor skill level. That's cumbersome and kinda unnecessary, although I'd you guys really want another thing to waste spend money on, uh... Maybe?
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Post by Psionic-Entity on Aug 12, 2015 8:17:49 GMT -5
Clothing won't have levels but I'm not averse to giving it some kind of stats.
The problem is that I don't want light armor to become the "RP armor" skill and I definitely don't want people adventuring in clothes. Two options I'm considering:
Fixed AC equal to padded armor.
Fixed AC equal to padded that increases a bit based on your best armor skill.
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Post by ladylightning on Aug 12, 2015 13:24:45 GMT -5
Well, alternatively, padded armor could just be extended to allow some more cloth-looking appearance options, like perhaps that long-sleeve dress with the green beads up to the neck? The idea being, of course, that padded armor itself is little more than a quilted doublet, and it's not too farfetched to think that people might wear it under their streetclothes.
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Post by electrohydra on Aug 12, 2015 15:17:42 GMT -5
Both these options are fine in my opinion, I agree that adventuring in clothes shouldn't be something very optimal. Just having more then 10 AC would be nice (Also, not turning off your other armor part's armor bonuses.)
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Brooker
Just Wandered In
The truth doesn't matter, It only matters what the people believe.
Posts: 25
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Post by Brooker on Aug 24, 2015 12:53:46 GMT -5
I wear padded armour because a base level 1 version gives +1 to stealth and gets better with every 10 levels. Am surprised that there has been no mention of basic clothing improving stealth. A progression tree with talents that upgrade stealth from using cloths would make a skill like this lucrative. Perhaps clothing should start with a +2 to stealth.
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