|
Post by Psionic-Entity on Jan 25, 2018 23:43:09 GMT -5
I've been working on some updates to the alchemy system that I'd like to roll out soon. There won't be any changes to existing potions, but there will be two new classes of items that can be crafted with the alchemy skill. These will be released one at a time and the first one is an item I'm calling an elixir. Elixirs are heavy versions of potions that have a limited number of charges that replenish every time you rest. They have properties so the number of variations will be large, as it is for weapons crafting. They're also more powerful than potions, so they'll use more toxicity but also give much greater benefits. Once the design is chosen the plan is to start with three elixirs, one for each of the basic potions (healing, stamina, recovery) that include strong initial effects and mods that either change how they work or add a complementary effect.I'm considering two possible options for the overall design:
Option 1:
- Elixirs have modest power and are balanced mainly by the fact that they have less weight efficiency than potions. - My concern with this option is that it's hard to envision a set of stats where people want to have both potions and elixirs. - If I go with this option there might end up being quite a few updates to tweak the stats, or some kind of secondary system to limit their use.
Option 2:
- Elixirs require rare ingredients such as the ones obtained from bosses and are overall stronger than in the other case. - My concern here is it really cuts in to how many will be made, and it also makes it so they can't ever be added to drop tables.
I would like to hear opinions before I settle on one or the other, but for now most of the system can be built without having settled on final stats and recipes.
|
|
|
Post by gazoo on Jan 26, 2018 13:55:20 GMT -5
I propose that these be limited use (consumable charges) that are produced from Boss drops that can be used in some way to help in defeating the Boss at higher tiers.
Kind of how dragon hide allows for armor with resistance. It is useful in various specific situations - but mostly for defeating the Boss in future ranks.
____________________________________________________
Re: consumables.
Once something is no longer needed to be replenished, that removes the incentive to buy future stocks completely.
Use should be very limited but very useful in the limited applications (imho).
Tier should have a significant impact...otherwise you save money by just making tier 1 and don't really need to use PCs that have put effort into skills.
And finally, I think it should logically be boosted by the Mixologist line.
^P.S. I have none of these feats, but believe they need to be considered.
|
|
|
Post by Kitsunenotsume on Jan 26, 2018 16:21:35 GMT -5
I would support Option Number 2 (Boss Reagents), but as noted it would need some address.
Currently, many bosses are limited in the number of drops; Dragons, for example, supply exactly enough hide that each player can make exactly one set of the armor of their choice - no more and no alternate equipment (such as multiple armor weights, or differently modded sets). The most straight-forwards solution I can see would be to have multiple bosses that drop the reagents or additional resource types specifically for rare mods; perhaps both the Black Dragon and the Toxolith drop 'Toxic Bile' that can be used for limited acid-related elixirs and mods, BlueDrag and Diver could drop 'Charged Ivory', etc. rather than the scales themselves being consumed. If we wanted to stick with the scales, it would warrant another dragon of each type, which might make the bosses less unique (or require more teirs. Anyone wanna fight a pair of mated dragons?). While increasing the resource complexity makes it more, well, complex, I think it makes it more rewarding as well - so long as the method is not arbitrary and inconsistent (looking at you Frog Toes). It would also reduce propagation time of 'rare-mods' generally, rather than going from 'Unavailable' to 'Factory-line' as soon as one person hits 100% learned.
Another concern is limiting use: as has been noted and thrown around on Discord, free refreshing potions would seem attractive to mass and save in the long-run over buying normal potions. However, we already have a similar situation in the form of Guns-vs-Thrown. On one hand we have a consumable based weapon, and on the other we have a combat-comparable time-limited weapon. the consumable based weaponry is by far the preferred option on the server despite its constant maintenance cost for a few reasons I can see:
1) Quantity-Limited vs Use-Limited; obviously, this is discussed in the initial intent for Elixirs, but the prevalence of Hunting Rifles, Double Pistols, and Jezails over Carbines, Handguns, and Thrown Weapons is the ability to use as many as you have right *now* without restraint. While magazine weapons have higher burst capacity, and thrown weapons have a theoretically zero upkeep costs, they both have a finite number of shots that require out-of-combat micromanagement to restore. Direct-loaded weapons by comparison can just keep firing until you literally run dry on ammo and thus are perceived as having a higher per-combat sustainability. 2) Small Upkeep vs Large Up-front costs; all weapons have a large investment, but once you have a rifle or pistol, it is a relatively minor but constant price to improve your damage per combat by buying more bullets or magazines. Thrown weapons, on the other hand, have no such upkeep, but must be purchased additional times for the full base-price to improve total available shots per combat. Each additional weapon beyond the first substantially decreases the relative cost-efficiency when compared to a single rifle and its comparatively negligible ammo costs. 3) Micromanagement; touched on in point #1, Thrown weapons (and magazines to a seperate degree) require micromanagement that a direct-load weapon does not. Thrown weapons need to be switched manually if you run out (assuming you went by #2 and invested another few thousand into a second set), and re-equipped when out of combat to reload. Comparatively, a Hunting Rifle just keeps working (due to reload autoqueue) unless you tried to shoot someone and have no ammo at all - in which case your char will complain from a (hopefully) save distance instead of run into melee to try punching some dude in the face. This also affects resource management, as equipping a completely new weapon is often more disruptive to stamina conservation than reloading (though not by much).
I have found damage between most such unmodified weapons to be on par, and thus not a significant factor to compare here.
With that in mind, I think all three of these factors can be addressed when comparing Potions to Elixirs: 1: Use Limits - We have already addressed that Elixirs will have finite uses per rest, but without other limitation would be easily subject to abuse by quantity. I would be inclined to put Elixirs as a piece of slotted equipment - either in the Amulet or Ring slots upon which their benefits can be accessed like any other gear-ability. In turn this would make it easier to implement either a Cooldown on use, or limit a character to using only one or two Elixir items per rest if the charges are only reset if the char rests while it is equipped. With either (or both) implemented, normal potions would still be desirable when quantity is preferable to quality, and 'just one potion' isn't sufficient. 2: Large up-front costs - Rather straight-forwards, and one I expect will already be in play. While stockpiling and inflation will make it probable, it should not be an economically trivial matter to have multiple elixirs, particularly redundant ones. This would be greatly strengthened by the requirement of boss-reagents. 3: Management - Covered mostly in #1, where having them as equipment items would permit greater control on the use-economy of multiples, without significantly impacting individuals using only one or two.
If these aspects are addressed, I think it would be effective and appropriate for Elixirs to have significantly greater impact than their Potion siblings. I think that having them as trinket items would also pave the way for other similar things, like Blacksmithing Whetstones and Gunsmithing Powderhorns that can increase damage or accuracy temporarily, or other limited use temporary item-based perks.
|
|
|
Post by Psionic-Entity on Jan 26, 2018 19:47:06 GMT -5
A few responses to what's been brought up so far. First they're all going to be based on temporary effects, no long term buff potions. The basic template is one fairly heavy item that gets X charges every time you rest. I also like the idea of using the other inventory slots but I only have three left and I plan on using those for other items later on.
The connection with boss tiers (if we go that route) would only exist as a way of limiting how many of them a single PC can get. I dislike tying them to boss drops for a few reasons. One is that it ties availability to level (locking many of them until late in progression) and makes it so that I have to either come up with new bosses or add questionable item drops to old ones retroactively. I also dislike keeping them out of the drop tables since that take some of the fun out of trying to learn new properties. The reason I'm considering it is because the "test" setups I've looked at seem bad for a variety of reasons, either because they make elixirs useless or make it seem optimal to stack a bunch of them at the expense of potions. I think ideally players would carry 2-5 elixirs around and use potions for the rest, but that's a hard mark to hit just by tweaking statistics.
|
|
|
Post by Kitsunenotsume on Jan 26, 2018 20:23:36 GMT -5
Quite fair. The paradigm we currently have and aim for, if I recall, is that nothing should be locked behind craft/loot/reward. You make a good point that tying loot to specific bosses steps away from that. However, as I pointed out in my post, having rare materials from any source required for a greater quantity of mods wouldn't be a bad thing, as only gear materials and potions require searching (but are also always-accessible). The issue as it currently stand is that rare materials are easy but unreliable in their source, rather than challenging and reliable (outside dragon-hide). Unfortunately, challenge scales with level, so what is suicide for a rank 10 is a cakewalk for a rank 50, making that restriction pretty moot point.
It occurs to me, as I write this, that said reagents could be tied to some bounty system: instead of receiving the loot from the boss, the quest-giver could tie the reward to completing a monster-bounty appropriate to the level of the character. It would provide the reliable expedited source I mentioned earlier, limited to some degree by how often the quests reward the reagent, and still permit the reagent and Elixirs to be added to drop tables because a specific boss/level need not be reached to obtain the regent as a reward.
[Edit]: inclusion for record - After some discussion, we came to an idea of applying diminishing returns beyond a set number of elixirs worth of uses. This would allow low numbers of elixirs to be used without penalty, while making mass-elixirs inefficient compared to using cheap potions instead.
|
|