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Post by andbreak12345 on Aug 3, 2015 0:57:05 GMT -5
if this has already been brought up, please ignore. appeal to reason: at .2 lbs per round/shell, it's quite easy to hit overcapacity just by carrying the bare necessities for any given dungeon. two complete stacks of ammunition comes to 40lbs - which is more or less a safe number of ammo to take with you on any adventure - and you'll be needing more if you carry around a submachine gun. This, coupled with armor, low encumberance threshold, etc. etc... can we consider reducing the weight of ammunition across the board? appeal to emotion: admins pls
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Post by Fuzz on Aug 3, 2015 9:54:32 GMT -5
We just lowered the weight of ammunition...
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Post by drunkensolamnic on Aug 3, 2015 11:17:34 GMT -5
Ammo use to be 15 per 50. Now its 10 per 50. Honestly it feels right. My own suggestion would be to start canceling any attacks after your first one when using a gun. Take one careful shot each round to conserve ammo, and carry less.
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Post by andbreak12345 on Aug 3, 2015 12:28:20 GMT -5
I suppose then, that the question is this:
Why is ammunition so heavy?
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Post by Rekov on Aug 3, 2015 12:33:21 GMT -5
Some basic googling suggests that bullets generally weigh less than an ounce. Often much less. .50 caliber fires bullets that come in around 50 grams, or .11 pounds, and those suckers are big.
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Genbor
Gumshoe
"If you die, don't come crying to me about it."
Posts: 81
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Post by Genbor on Aug 3, 2015 13:09:05 GMT -5
Some basic googling suggests that bullets generally weigh less than an ounce. Often much less. .50 caliber fires bullets that come in around 50 grams, or .11 pounds, and those suckers are big. So as much as I want Ammo to weigh less, multiplying .11 with 99 gives us pretty close to the full 10 lbs we have in game at the moment for Rifle Ammunition. Out of the three attributes/stats from which we need to choose from (Health, Carry, Stamina), Health is obvious but Stamina is needed only because of the reload costs being so high, although someone who will be using the new Marksman activated abilities might also want a few points of it allocated there. I'm fine with having to focus on Carry to remain mobile with the ammunition weighing me down, but I'd really like to see [Combat Reload] lowering the reload stamina cost. That would certainly be more useful then the + AC against attacks of opportunity. Or maybe have a branching path there as well, which would be something like [Practiced Reload], which lessens the cost during battle? Anyway it pains me to say but, ammunition weights is fine as it is at the moment.
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Post by Fuzz on Aug 3, 2015 13:17:10 GMT -5
Some basic googling suggests that bullets generally weigh less than an ounce. Often much less. .50 caliber fires bullets that come in around 50 grams, or .11 pounds, and those suckers are big. Ever carried a case of ammo? They're really heavy, since there's more weight than just the bullets to account for. The alternative is people rolling around with literal armories of bullets, blasting out several hundred rounds before they have to start worrying about ammo.
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Post by Rekov on Aug 3, 2015 13:17:22 GMT -5
Some basic googling suggests that bullets generally weigh less than an ounce. Often much less. .50 caliber fires bullets that come in around 50 grams, or .11 pounds, and those suckers are big. So as much as I want Ammo to weigh less, multiplying .11 with 99 gives us pretty close to the full 10 lbs we have in game at the moment for Rifle Ammunition. .11 lbs per bullet is 45% less than what rifle bullets currently weigh, .2 lbs per bullet.
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Post by drunkensolamnic on Aug 3, 2015 13:18:50 GMT -5
P-E's explanation is that you're not dealing with modern tech in this instance. So you have to use more gunpowder, since its weaker/inconsistent. You're using say iron casings instead of brass, as brass is more expensive. The bullets are bigger gauge to deal with armor. The entire thing itself is longer because the primers are primitive and need to be larger.
In all, the tech may be similar to RL tech.. but its different enough to weigh more.
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Post by andbreak12345 on Aug 3, 2015 14:47:18 GMT -5
Fair enough. What I suggest then, is this: remove the universal weight from the ammunition types and differentiate them.
Shotgun shells would be the heaviest (maybe .3?) Rifle rounds would stay at .2. Pistol rounds would be reduced to .1
The last suggestion would solve two problems: The first being an incentive for the pistol - lighter ammunition allows you to carry more. It also allows a trusty backup with little in the weigh of encumberance.
The second being the SMG. A submachine gun shoots pistol rounds. That's what makes it a submachine gun. In it's current state, the 'submachine gun' is actually a rifle with an automatic setting (or, arguably, just a machine gun) given that it shoots ... rifle rounds. Changing the submachine gun to shoot pistol rounds would put it more in line with what it's being called, and if the weight of pistol rounds were reduced, would offset it's high ammunition needs/needs to carry a lot of rounds.
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Post by Fuzz on Aug 3, 2015 16:28:45 GMT -5
Like so many other misconceptions about shotguns, by your argument the rifle rounds would actually be the heaviest, not the shells.
Ever seen a 7.62 NATO round? Imagine that, but made out of iron. Things are big and heavy.
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Post by Kaybrie on Aug 3, 2015 16:35:30 GMT -5
Like so many other misconceptions about shotguns, by your argument the rifle rounds would actually be the heaviest, not the shells. Ever seen a 7.62 NATO round? Imagine that, but made out of iron. Things are big and heavy. Also helps explain the limited ranges that our characters fight across. I have no problem with the weight of ammunition, it puts more emphasis on the importance of upgrading Carry. (Zesiro carries around 250 rounds and 50 bandages, with extra room for potions, books, grenades, 4 guns, etc. Still not encumbered because I invested a couple points into carry.)
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Post by andbreak12345 on Aug 3, 2015 17:11:06 GMT -5
Like so many other misconceptions about shotguns, by your argument the rifle rounds would actually be the heaviest, not the shells. Ever seen a 7.62 NATO round? Imagine that, but made out of iron. Things are big and heavy. I dislike comparing NWN2 to real life, but:
An AK-47 round:
7.62X39 Wolf Steel Case 122gr FMJ Rounds per pound:27.59 Weight per 100 rounds(lbs):3.63
From personal knowledge and experience a 100 round box of 7.62x51 linked, weighs a little over 7 lbs. 15lbs if you include the actual box.
Shotgun Calibers
12GA 2 3/4" Slug Federal HI-Shok Slug Rounds per pound: 10.53 Weight per 100 rounds (lbs): 9.50
12GA 2 3/4" #4 Shot Remington Express 4BK Rounds per pound: 9.30 Weight per 100 rounds (lbs): 10.75
12GA 2 3/4" #7 1/2 Shot Federal #7 1/2 Shot Rounds per pound: 10.53 Weight per 100 rounds (lbs): 9.75
12GA 2 3/4"00 Buckshot Federal Express 9 Pellet Rounds per pound: 9.76 Weight per 100 rounds (lbs): 10.25
It stands to reason if one type of ammunition is cast from lead/iron, then so to would the pellets from a shotgun shell. The weight ratios would remain unaffected.
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EDIT: Rereading this, I feel like I've come off a little as 'that guy'. If shotgun shells should weigh more than rifle rounds on this server, that's perfectly fine if to keep a handle on the amount of ammunition PC's can carry on their person. What I would like to be taken away from this thread is this point:
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jakunen
Gumshoe
Developer
Posts: 81
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Post by jakunen on Aug 3, 2015 20:07:09 GMT -5
Alright, so I'm going to go ahead and be that guy and ask.... The alternative is people rolling around with literal armories of bullets, blasting out several hundred rounds before they have to start worrying about ammo. Why is this a bad thing?
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Genbor
Gumshoe
"If you die, don't come crying to me about it."
Posts: 81
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Post by Genbor on Aug 3, 2015 23:11:16 GMT -5
So as much as I want Ammo to weigh less, multiplying .11 with 99 gives us pretty close to the full 10 lbs we have in game at the moment for Rifle Ammunition. .11 lbs per bullet is 45% less than what rifle bullets currently weigh, .2 lbs per bullet. Wow I messed up really badly. I forgot that the previous stack of 50 Rifle Ammunition was 10 lbs. and not the 99... Ugh. On another note, the incoming update will have low-caliber ammunition weights reduced by half, so that's great. Especially since something like an SMG eats through my clips in a fight or two, so I'd need a lot more clips to bring with me for longer usage.
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