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Post by kaincallavis on Oct 5, 2016 3:01:28 GMT -5
Groups are struggling a bit more now with the triage nerf preventing melee from being able to duck out, recover some, and get back in.
My suggestions:
Give full secondary benefits of triage on self use.
AND one of the two following:
Take half of the initial numbers away from self-heals but leave the first-aid scaling in full. Or at least Reduce the stamina cost by half on self use.
IE: Triage 1 gives 5-10 +1/10FA, change self heal to 2-5 +1/10FA skill... Triage 2 self heal would be reduced from 5-15 down to 3-7 +1/10FA... Emergency Care 3 self heal would go from 10-20 down to 5-10 +1/10FA plus the 10 points of cummulative fire/bleed/acid removal... Whereas Combat Reconstitution 3 self heal would go from 10-20 down to 5-10 +1/10FA and remove 10 points of toxicity... etc...
Reasoning: This still makes the doctors/medics chiefly benefit others, and keeps the skill a support skill. Likewise, now players attempting to heal themselves are not slapped in the face saying that all that time they put into leveling the skill is only worth half the benefit while the base healing stats of each skill are cut in half.
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Secondarily: I still think there should be a feat line that increases the self heal back up to 100% at the cost of additional abilities.
But the above suggestions would be a nice middle ground while greatly reducing the effectiveness of the triage ability on self-use, but still making it half-decent in terms of time investment into the skill when they use it on themselves. So at least the players can expect to get some decent use out of the skill at much higher first-aid skill levels.
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Post by eba on Oct 5, 2016 3:05:30 GMT -5
bit sleepy right now, but those look like good ideas to me
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mezzy
Just Wandered In
Posts: 17
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Post by mezzy on Oct 5, 2016 3:27:54 GMT -5
To me it's odd a skill has two functions. Why do I do it better on others, but not so good on my self? Makes little sense even.
And I agree with the option listed abow by Khannon!
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Post by Lugwy on Oct 5, 2016 9:30:20 GMT -5
The issue I see with "halve stamina cost if used on self" is that players won't see it as "cool, I only spend half stamina if I use on myself!" but rather "aww, the stamina cost is doubled if I use it on others!" Glass half empty and all that.
Triage isn't the only healing ability to stress using it on others; some old MMO games I used to play had healing spells that were 2-3x as potent used on others than on self, without changing the mana/material cost, but to be fair, those spells were usually powerful enough that even at half or third potency they were still good for self-healing (if a little costly). However, I'm not sure if PE wants to improve overall Triage potency as this nerf was specifically to curb people taking it as a must-pick.
As a thought: give first aid kits a bit of love? Maybe a small regeneration effect for some utility in combat for people who don't Sawbone?
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Post by Fuzz on Oct 5, 2016 9:42:38 GMT -5
To me it's odd a skill has two functions. Why do I do it better on others, but not so good on my self? Makes little sense even. And I agree with the option listed abow by Khannon! Speaking as someone that's bandaged up people and attempted to do it on myself a couple times, yeah... it's a lot harder to wrap bandages with one hand, for example, or stitch up your own wounds. Not arguing that that's the logic, just saying that there's some precedent for it.
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eldwen
Chesterfields
Posts: 72
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Post by eldwen on Oct 5, 2016 10:49:16 GMT -5
From what I've been seeing everything is now working more as intended as far as what characters should be doing. The fact that a nerf to a single ability should really show that making Triage better again is not the solution to the problems people are having.
This change has had no effect on the people that use the actual skill the most, are RPing the fact, and have it built into their character concept - Medics.
There is no downside from this to the people that are intended to use Triage, what has happened is it's no longer as attractive, or useful, to people that don't full invest into the skill-tree. Which is how it should be.
We get a lot of freedom with how we want to design our character - what to specialize in, what to use, and we're not bogged down with things like "class" or anything of the sort. But with that amount of choice what happens is if someone wants to do everything - they can't. Because there are too many roles to fill.
I'd say a buff to potions, or lower toxicity on reds would be a good step since 1.) now healing would cost people coin if they're not a dedicated medic. 2.) There would be no skill XP, and 3.) This would also make medics more useful, they could run in with injectors and have an easier time healing up the front without their toxicity going overboard.
No skill should be so crucial someone needs to ham-fist it into their build. Dedicated healing should be done by dedicated medics, which we have on this server, while dedicated fighters, tanks, marksmen, rogues, crafters, demo-men should all focus on their specialty.
TLDR: Medics should be the best at healing, have the highest skill in healing, while fighters should have the highest weapon/armor scores, and the abilities in there to fit the character. Make potions cost less toxicity so a medic is really, REALLY useful, but not so crucial some careful planning and management can make it through a dungeon crawl.
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Post by kaincallavis on Oct 5, 2016 12:11:09 GMT -5
TLDR: Medics should be the best at healing, have the highest skill in healing, while fighters should have the highest weapon/armor scores, and the abilities in there to fit the character. Make potions cost less toxicity so a medic is really, REALLY useful, but not so crucial some careful planning and management can make it through a dungeon crawl. With the aforementioned suggestion medics still get the "lay of the land" in terms of healing. The skill is still severely crippled on self use, but when you get to 60 or 70+ firstaid and up it becomes slightly more viable on self-use. At this level of skill mastery, honestly, it should provide more benefit on self use.
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eldwen
Chesterfields
Posts: 72
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Post by eldwen on Oct 5, 2016 12:56:22 GMT -5
Why is that a bad thing? Medics are there to heal people - that's the skill and what they focus in. It makes sense that they would be the best at healing - and that it should be used on other players mainly. If the medic is being targeted and needs to be healing, there's a problem and he needs a hand, not throw up healing on himself constantly.
At 60-70, the skill should still provide a better benefit to others, not to self-healing. That's the point of the skill.
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Zoomshot
Gumshoe
A Shields-man stands before all, a boundary of protection and security.
Posts: 77
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Post by Zoomshot on Oct 5, 2016 13:35:37 GMT -5
I do get what Kain and DS are on about with it though. Originally the skill had use for them, and the party. Now that its weaken for themselves. There is no real point in keeping it when it can be left to medic rpers alone. They can just take other abilities that benefit themselves and the team more.
That is where the issue is though. Azir goes down like a kitten in a wet paper sac even with Doc healing. I can't ask them to keep a skill that has no function for them when there are others just as good. I'm not saying this suggestion is good or bad. However, there needs to be a middle ground. I know first hand that Emmanuel alone isn't good enough to keep Azir up. He just can't heal enough, and as is there are no reasons for those said players and any others to weaken themselves for the team, or at times weaken the team for that skill.
I like their suggestions because its a step forward and a thing to try our to see how well it does. I understand the issues both ways though. Medical players don't want to feel replaced, and realistically as Fuzz said. It is hard to tend to yourself. That being said, as is, there is no real solid reason for DPS to keep that skill when now it lacks in utility compared to other skills for them.
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Post by Lugwy on Oct 5, 2016 15:06:39 GMT -5
If Azir is built for heavy tanking but is getting chumped in 3-5 rounds consistently in an at-level party in an at-level dungeon, that sounds more like a dungeon balancing issue than an issue with Triage and it would help PE a lot to highlight the factors that you observe that lead to Azir going down so fast.
Triage should be many things but it shouldn't be a bandaid for a more serious wound.
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Post by drunkensolamnic on Oct 5, 2016 15:27:06 GMT -5
I have no intention of unlearning Triage. I took it intentionally to help with healing duties as I know the damage out put can be overwhelming for one healer. I also took it thinking I'd be tending myself, what is happening at this point is I am helping keep the tank up, and maybe possibly being able to drink enough potions to get into the thick of things when it is rough. I found altering my play style to carry more ranged weapons, grenades, and stamina potions to sort of solve the "but I still have to be a damage source, but I can't do that because hey.. after drinking my 3 potions and getting hit by another grenade while I was healing the tank... I can't get close without going down... and I need 3 more rounds to get that 4th potion in me".
Much like the detect change, this one would have come easier if it had been done sooner. I would be rocking 110 stamina and 140 toxicity instead of vice versa.
That said as I am not prone to soloing often, all this change has really done is make it harder for me to stay in a fight in a group. Doubly so when a devoted medic isn't around to help me after I help the tank.
I will say that I fully support secondary effects being restored to 100% the solo-abuse self-heal potential comes from the raw HP gain that can be used mid-combat. Removing 10 tox from myself with a T3 ability, means that if I heal twice, I might restore 20hp, and then be able to drink a potion and go back to the fight. Removing 5 tox means that I'd have to do it 4 times, by which point my party is dead and I'm still trying to get up to a point of health where I can't be instant killed by the monster they are fighting. Same for the removal of fire/bleed damage on the other ability, removing this damage is more important in team play than solo. In a solo fight I can run out of the fire in one door way to another choke point and use mobility to win a fight. In team play, if I run out of a pool of fire to stop burning, it means a party wipe as the tenuous "control" of an encounter's movement just was lost. CC can only do so much to counter that.
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Post by Psionic-Entity on Oct 5, 2016 15:28:31 GMT -5
If people care enough I do have the technology available to allow swaps between the HP/Stamina/Metabolism choice, just hasn't made its way in to a system or GUI yet.
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Post by Fuzz on Oct 5, 2016 15:37:05 GMT -5
For the talk about potions, there is also the Mixology Talent tree that's specifically for improving potion potency, on top of what is gained by using higher level potions. I would think that tank type characters would be all over that tree and getting high level potions, so they wouldn't have to use things like Triage as much.
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Post by drunkensolamnic on Oct 5, 2016 15:52:40 GMT -5
For the talk about potions, there is also the Mixology Talent tree that's specifically for improving potion potency, on top of what is gained by using higher level potions. I would think that tank type characters would be all over that tree and getting high level potions, so they wouldn't have to use things like Triage as much. I've been eyeballing this, the 5% increments are just a small return for the cost this early, but I have it earmarked for later after I have all my armor feats.
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Post by Kitsunenotsume on Oct 5, 2016 16:08:47 GMT -5
For the talk about potions, there is also the Mixology Talent tree that's specifically for improving potion potency, on top of what is gained by using higher level potions. I would think that tank type characters would be all over that tree and getting high level potions, so they wouldn't have to use things like Triage as much. I should think that the innate flaw here is that the tank would be taking first aid skill, without any means to increase first aid.
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