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Post by drunkensolamnic on Oct 5, 2016 16:26:18 GMT -5
If people care enough I do have the technology available to allow swaps between the HP/Stamina/Metabolism choice, just hasn't made its way in to a system or GUI yet. This would actually be very helpful at least in my case. |
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Post by Fuzz on Oct 5, 2016 16:34:24 GMT -5
For the talk about potions, there is also the Mixology Talent tree that's specifically for improving potion potency, on top of what is gained by using higher level potions. I would think that tank type characters would be all over that tree and getting high level potions, so they wouldn't have to use things like Triage as much. I should think that the innate flaw here is that the tank would be taking first aid skill, without any means to increase first aid. If you solo and use First Aid kits on yourself and your companion, you can get FA Skill exp to level up First Aid to 20 where you can start taking Mixology. Once you have Mixology, I believe drinking appropriate level potions actually gives you First Aid exp, so from then on you can just improve the skill that way. |
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Zoomshot
Gumshoe
A Shields-man stands before all, a boundary of protection and security.
Posts: 77 
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Post by Zoomshot on Oct 5, 2016 17:39:52 GMT -5
For the talk about potions, there is also the Mixology Talent tree that's specifically for improving potion potency, on top of what is gained by using higher level potions. I would think that tank type characters would be all over that tree and getting high level potions, so they wouldn't have to use things like Triage as much. I should think that the innate flaw here is that the tank would be taking first aid skill, without any means to increase first aid. It's also underestimated the skills we are able to effectively level. More over, tank is heavily feat hungry for those primary skill lines. Once more, mixology doesn't stack. Doc can get it, inject me and I get the benefit. |
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Post by modular on Oct 5, 2016 19:19:43 GMT -5
Doc has it. It affects clouds.
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Post by modular on Oct 6, 2016 15:50:32 GMT -5
Having reached the Tier 3 level, I've found that rather than be an improvement, the increased stamina cost (10!) per activation makes the skill untenable.
There is a sudden, major gap that isn't made up for by the effects of said ability, where I find myself unable to sustain the levels of healing necessary in the role, to sustain a fight.
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Post by kaincallavis on Oct 6, 2016 18:55:16 GMT -5
Just coming on to add another two-cents.
Pick it apart if you want.
I've heard it said:
"D&D is a garbage and imbalanced system and no one complains in other PWs about how ranger heal sucks or wizards can blow up everything"
Well that is part of why this server is critiqued so hard. Many players are used to the D&D standards... This server is breaking out of the box.
Naturally many more eyes will be pointing daggers just waiting to poke holes in things that are accomplished here.
But this is an instance (probably one of the few) where this is not the case.
You see, when shit like this happens people circumvent it in their own way in D&D. They adjust themselves to find a way through.
And that's exactly what we did here... until it got shit on for imbalance- lol
Triage does need some work, regardless.
2 suggestions... one I already listed... it gives back some self-heal benefit which encourages back-up healers to come in and pull some of the slack (probably much to the dismay of traditional healers that want to ensure they get their majority share in the FA skill xp)
The other suggestion:
Make a feat line that lowers the stam cost for more dedicated medics, and maybe offers something else...
Or even simply attach it to something that is pure medic... like "first aid"
Add in a clause like "oh, and triage costs 2 less stamina per use... up to 10.
Rank 1: -2 stam
rank 2: -4 stam
up to rank 5: -10 stam.
Or make it cumulative... a medic that uses triage more than once in a time frame (10 rounds, 1 minute?) uses less stam per use. This will only benefit medic-style players without making the ability stronger for non-medics.
There is no such thing as a 100% perfectly balanced online game- at least not one based on an rpg background.
Triage needs a little work, but level-appropriate content is now shifted from a beloved "very difficult" to a distasteful "haha, good luck."
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Post by eba on Oct 6, 2016 19:31:49 GMT -5
Almost everyone powerbuilds on other servers too and know exactly what build is strong and how strong they will be throughout the entire life of a server. And those mechanics still sucks and I hate them  |
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Post by drunkensolamnic on Oct 7, 2016 14:53:53 GMT -5
The ability to keep melee characters on their feet is definitely still one of the screaming problems with the current balance. Unless we're dropping enemy AC values down to the 10-15 range and setting their HP levels comparable to PCs so a "good offense" is an effective defensive strategy, right now there's no way to out-last on-level spawns.
Cumulative damage is a thing, HP level is a thing, toxicity is a thing, and stamina pool is a thing. Unfortunately solo or in a group you can only do so so much about any one of these things without completing tapping your ability to do anything else. I can pour all my stamina into keeping a tank alive, only to be unable to get him to a health level where I can stop spamming Triage, due to cumulative damage. The Tank can't drink enough potions to both keep himself alive AND clear his cumulative. Once the tank goes down even with 2+ PCs trying to keep him alive on top of his own potion drinking, its pretty much a wrap as I can no longer with the help of a 2nd medic keep my own health up to tank out the remainder of the fight.
I've tried using grenades for cc and damage instead of swinging my sword, I've tried swinging heavy-hitting weapons, weapons made to hit as often as possible, i've used activeds while spamming stamina potions to keep reusing them. I've tried devotedly using Triage to keep other PCs over 50% health rather than dealing any damage at all. We've tried small groups, large groups. We've tried groups with majority tanks, majority ranged damage, and have tried operating with as many as 3 PCs playing medic. Something isn't giving when we're on-level.
The only major glaring problem I can see beyond "its impossible to keep point-characters alive" is that as soon as mobs start to hurl concussion grenades, things almost always turn bottom up because there's no real way to respond to the mobs ignoring the stunned characters, or the stunned characters no longer being able to do naught but move.
Overall, I'm feeling pretty impotent in fights. Even in lower level fights unless I roll a critical.
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Post by Psionic-Entity on Oct 7, 2016 15:50:52 GMT -5
DS, the only sensible changes to make in response to the kinds of things you're describing are changes to content. Buffing PCs in general isn't viable because you either throw off the balance between different abilities or you have to go in and redesign the entire system, ground up, so that PCs have better stats. If changing the effects of Triage self heal made it that much harder to run dungeons then Triage was clearly too good (no one ability should ever be good enough so that losing it makes content impossible) and dungeons need an adjustment to match it. The reason that hasn't happened on any large scale is because nobody leaves dungeon-specific feedback.
If I get a few PMs or suggestion posts saying (and I'm by no means being brief here, one liners are the best) that "hey can't do Wyler because concussion grenade CC and enemy health make it a war of attrition" then I can look at things like changing the grenades creatures spawn with, maybe trading health for damage, decreasing stats overall, etc. If people don't do that then I need to spend hours scraping the database for party wipes, searching discord for chatter clues about why they're happening, scanning posts like the last one to try and figure out what dungeons they apply to, putting people on the spot and asking 1 on 1, etc. By the time I've done all that most people will have decided that the dungeon is a "no fly zone" and the changes probably won't be what you needed anyways.
That might sound whiny but that's really an honest assessment of where we are right now. I'm not sure what I can do to entice people to be more forthcoming but at this point if I had a feed of posts like "yo fuck the spawns in dungeon X their ability Y is total bullshit" I'd be getting orders of magnitude more useful information than I am now. Combine that with a bit of groundwork to make sure the dungeon actually is murdering at-level parties and you have some solid evidence for changing up ability Y.
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Zoomshot
Gumshoe
A Shields-man stands before all, a boundary of protection and security.
Posts: 77
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Post by Zoomshot on Oct 7, 2016 16:59:02 GMT -5
Well, here is context I can give then. When I first started getting into Wyler, I was around 25+ skill line. We had around 6 people, maybe 8ish. (Azir, Octavia, Kitara, somethimes KHannon or Hanifa, Emmanuel, Clive, James.) We'd get to a door. Clive and James would blow them up. It was a battle of attrition. The whole fight was them bombing us, and us them with Doc and Kit and Oct keeping me up and in the door. (By my perspective.) It worked for a while. I'm not sure what update did it, but somehow that changed, the spawns of 16 or so we got turned into, I kid you not, spawns of around 24. The result was we started doing smaller teams. Sometimes just four of us. We still ended up with spawns near twenty and AoE grenade hell. So we kept wiping and reporting. Triage being changed made us dying a lot easier. Khannon, Kitara couldn't quickly patch themselves up with it while I potioned. Instead, what would happen is since we are all taking AoE dmg. They'd have to max out toxicity like I am, and one or two of us would simply drop at the same time.
I need to clarify this. Even in prior victories. All of us took huge amounts of dmg. They maxed their tox out and went to using the Triage skill on me, you're right there. It is what balanced the dungeons - so something is wrong.
By my perspective, and what I keep mentioning on my end is. I do not feel either max armor, or mini armor is sufficient enough. Either that, or I am simply not doing enough dmg. I can't leave tank mod, so I have to rely on my armor and block purely. Which means I'm there standing taunts, Immovable and potions.
Now then, moving a past our old methodology of doing Wyler.
We always start on the right wing. We go in, we pull via Azir moving in to the bend and opening the first three doors. Azir gets attacked and I hurry back to the Alchemy room board we entered from. What happens? Well all the enemies run to us. We fight them in the door way. Now this is important because several things happen. Either they are HUGELY bomb intensive. In which case our healers are killed by the AoE, or CC, and then I drop, or we some how live with potion spamming with several people using Triage. ((Despite the on self "nerf". It's still a musthave, we can't do the dungeon without at least 2 people having it skill.))
Provided we aren't bomb to death, I have to watch out for Taunt being hung while spamming heal potions. Sometimes when it hangs. I notice block happens to fail a lot in a huge tower over Azir's head. ((I don't know if that is just convenient roll timing, or if it is relevant) I do know that when that happens, I drop almost instantly. ((Which is what happen to day. So much so that my max hp dropped to 31 from 165. Among other factors that caused it.
Another thing I have to watch out for is being closeness pushed out the door. Taunt often doesn't work, or they just ignore me, so what happens? Azir gets shoved out of the door, and they attack James, or Doc, sometimes Khannon or Kitara. I can't leave the door to get them, or they all flood in.
Finally, and most important. ((I only counted 11ish spawns today, for 5 people so that wasn't horrible.)) When there a huge amount of spawns. I got hit so often Azir just melted like butter to a hot knife.
The pure amount of dmg they do force us to use door ways, to try to subtle pull small groups at a time and so on.
Now, thats Wyler. Other dungeons? By the large part, we don't have to do that. In Mines, I could walk right in, ((with a small group of 4)) and be okay. I'd still nearly die. Any more than four. We use doorways. Swamp is generally always pulling to a door way. No letting them circle me. I take too much dmg, and they can easily hot switch to our healer. My impression, though I am not 100% sure is that Wyler spawns seem to do more dmg, or their bombs really make them THAT much more effective than a miner. To that extent, I have no idea. All I know is what works for us clearing 40 range dungeons, and what use to work on Wyler.
I hope that helps.
Now for the last disclaimer. These dungeons are scary, and fun. I absolutely "love" the mine. One screw up, and we are dead. its hard, but its not impossible. I dare say it is almost perfect. At times it "can" have Wyler's dmg issue for my perspective as a tank. I don't necessarily think it needs turned down, or it might be too easy.
This isn't a 100% post on the on going. I could have easily left stuff out, or got the order wrong. Wrote this out with a head cold.
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