Post by sareth675 on Jul 24, 2015 13:24:09 GMT -5
This is ONLY going to assess dungeoneering, as this is the only way (aside from gambling, which I believe should be more of a gold sink than cash generator on average), that new cash is currently injected into the server. Aside from DM events, which are too infrequent (not saying there isn't enough of them) to call a reliable source of income for characters, there are none of the other methods of gaining cash currently available.
Let me give an example of how the economy works on other servers and how this server differs in terms of dungeon grinding.
You go into a cave of monsters. You kill the monsters, you receive loot. The price of loot is, aside from it's price being altered by appraise skill, COMPLETELY STATIC.
A spear is always worth 10GP.
A sword is always worth 50GP.
A heal potion is always worth 20GP.
The difference with Engines of Ascension, is that items have levels. These levels ALSO dictate cost alongside the mercantilism skill.
What does this mean for the economy?
Basically since loot = weapons & armor on Engines of Ascension currently, these following points contribute to a highly fluctuating economy.
It means whenever items are changed such as stats.
Whenever a dungeon loot pattern is patched.
Whenever mob drop loot scripts are patched.
Whenever the crafting system is changed.
Whenever vendor prices are changed.
A larger party changes the amount you make.
A higher level party changes the amount you make.
All of these things have an affect on the price and amount of the loot you are selling. And since loot is almost exclusively armor and weapons, the economy can change rapidly (as we've seen) with the slightest of updates.
How on earth do you make a stable economy with all of these factors influencing 90% of items that are currently being sold? Every patch to balance any one of these aspects, changes the entire server.
The answer is simple.
Dungeoneering loot needs to be static in its pricing.
But how can that be possible when loot = different level armor & weapons?
Simple again. The standard of loot needs to be changed. That's the only way I can see the server maintaining a more stable economy.
And the server already has the tools available to do this.
'Trash loot.' neverwintervault.org/project/nwn2/hakpak/original-hakpak/uglyducks-item-icon-booster-pack-loot-treasure
Yes it's already been in the .hak suggestions, and was turned down. Because...
To dispel another myth that seems to be floating around. No, players do not actually store and keep the armor / weapons they find off of mobs. They sell it. They sell EVERY piece of armor and weapon, because this, is the real 'trash loot' of the server. The loot that comes in huge amounts and nobody actually has a use for. It just weighs you down, that's it. Sometimes you might find a better piece of gear, but just asking a crafter would do the same job. Thus, by mobs dropping lots of armor and weapons, actually reduces the usefulness of crafters on the server currently.
This new 'trash loot', I believe, is actually necessary to balancing the currently highly unstable economy. It would offer static priced items as loot. As another added bonus, I'm pretty sure people will agree it's far more immersive and 'fun' to find things like, golden goblets, old statuettes and paintings in loot nodes, or in dungeons, rather than piles and piles of reclaimed armor and weapon scraps off zombies. This would also lend credit to the future Museum, perhaps they will buy said 'trash loot' items for more than regular vendors? Or you hand them in for Faction advancement. Who knows, all things that are possibilities.
Dungeon areas could also be balanced much easier. You want a dungeon to have a rough payout of 300 bucks per person? Set the loot tables for that area to drop less valuable 'trash loot', like copper rings and pewter urns. Whereas higher more dangerous areas could offer the gold and silver every adventurer wants to find. Not sets upon sets of chain mail armor...
This would also help with everybody being constantly encumbered 24/7, due to all loot (weapons and armor) having high weight costs, thus anyone carrying loot is reduced to a crawl. This 'trash loot' would be lighter on average, thus allowing the party to move at a more reasonable speed in times of combat or retreat.
Also, 'trash loot' has collectible value, as was discussed on a similar trend in the jewellery crafting thread. (Sauce engines.freeforums.net/thread/205/jewelry-crafting)
I reckon a lot of characters would keep taxidermy, old coins, statues and stuff in their house, once houses get storage or display cases or whatever is planned for them. You could even make some of the planned furniture pieces as trash loot! Like those rugs Gafinsky sells. It gives people something to look for and adds a measure of achievement when you find something rare. Also, you've got plenty of icons in the base NWN2 game to use as trash loot icons. (Here's looking at you unused jewellery slots).
Example of how this would work with the current dungeon system.
Loot nodes offer bucks, consumables, BETTER armor and weapons AND 'trash loot'.
Boss chests offer bucks, consumables, BETTER armor and weapons AND 'trash loot'.
Mobs (the current main source of income), STOP dropping armor and weapons, in place for 'trash loot', and small amounts of bucks and consumables.
The reason I say loot nodes and boss chests should still offer armor and weapons, is because, as some players have pointed out, they don't want to use the crafters as the only way of getting better gear. Loot nodes and boss chests are the way to allow this style of play to be... well, playable. Thus, weapon and armor drops from loot nodes and boss chests could be tailored to be slightly better than your average weapons / armor, maybe with 1 attachment on average. People are more likely then, to keep these weapons and armor they find, and actually trade them if they don't need them themselves. Thus, increasing player to player interactivity both in and outside of dungeons.
This not only means mobs (through their armor & weapon drops) are not the deciding factor of the economy, but loot nodes and bosses will be considered more valuable, thus encouraging exploration and preparation to fight the bosses and go through the entire dungeon at length. Not just finishing your dungeon run based on where the spawns are and ending at the boss door because risk vs reward dictates bashing harmless deaders for a couple of hundred bucks, good. Whereas fighting the Diver for fifty bucks, maybe a cool weapon and possibly dying and losing everything, not good.
I do not think allowing boss chests and loot nodes to drop weapons and armor will cause too much destabilisation in the economy, as they are only lootable once per reset anyway. Thus they cannot be 'farmed' by a group of players, but Mobs will still offer a return for your time, as they will continue to drop this static priced 'trash loot'.
Another advantage of trash loot is that, as it would be priced the same from conception to the end of the server, it is far simpler to balance cash flow from dungeons. Tweaking 1 value on a piece of trash loot I can imagine is much easier than changing the entire crafting system around how much armor and weapons are worth in dungeons.
It might even help with current loot script bugs, such as weapons always seeming to drop at level 1.
What are peoples thoughts on this? Unnecessary? Or are there legitimate merits to considering this new loot system?
I believe the advantages of this new system hugely outweigh the current system. But unfortunately, I have no idea how arduous it would be to implement on the server.
PS: I don't want to make a poll and turn this into a voting thing, I don't think polls are an accurate representation of peoples full opinion, and not everyone who plays has a forum account ^^
Let me give an example of how the economy works on other servers and how this server differs in terms of dungeon grinding.
You go into a cave of monsters. You kill the monsters, you receive loot. The price of loot is, aside from it's price being altered by appraise skill, COMPLETELY STATIC.
A spear is always worth 10GP.
A sword is always worth 50GP.
A heal potion is always worth 20GP.
The difference with Engines of Ascension, is that items have levels. These levels ALSO dictate cost alongside the mercantilism skill.
What does this mean for the economy?
Basically since loot = weapons & armor on Engines of Ascension currently, these following points contribute to a highly fluctuating economy.
It means whenever items are changed such as stats.
Whenever a dungeon loot pattern is patched.
Whenever mob drop loot scripts are patched.
Whenever the crafting system is changed.
Whenever vendor prices are changed.
A larger party changes the amount you make.
A higher level party changes the amount you make.
All of these things have an affect on the price and amount of the loot you are selling. And since loot is almost exclusively armor and weapons, the economy can change rapidly (as we've seen) with the slightest of updates.
How on earth do you make a stable economy with all of these factors influencing 90% of items that are currently being sold? Every patch to balance any one of these aspects, changes the entire server.
The answer is simple.
Dungeoneering loot needs to be static in its pricing.
But how can that be possible when loot = different level armor & weapons?
Simple again. The standard of loot needs to be changed. That's the only way I can see the server maintaining a more stable economy.
And the server already has the tools available to do this.
'Trash loot.' neverwintervault.org/project/nwn2/hakpak/original-hakpak/uglyducks-item-icon-booster-pack-loot-treasure
Yes it's already been in the .hak suggestions, and was turned down. Because...
Fuzz - This could be doable, though traditional gameplay logic would imply that adding unnecessary trash loot that's only for pawning is sorta ehhh. (Sauce engines.freeforums.net/thread/43/hak-suggestions)
This new 'trash loot', I believe, is actually necessary to balancing the currently highly unstable economy. It would offer static priced items as loot. As another added bonus, I'm pretty sure people will agree it's far more immersive and 'fun' to find things like, golden goblets, old statuettes and paintings in loot nodes, or in dungeons, rather than piles and piles of reclaimed armor and weapon scraps off zombies. This would also lend credit to the future Museum, perhaps they will buy said 'trash loot' items for more than regular vendors? Or you hand them in for Faction advancement. Who knows, all things that are possibilities.
Dungeon areas could also be balanced much easier. You want a dungeon to have a rough payout of 300 bucks per person? Set the loot tables for that area to drop less valuable 'trash loot', like copper rings and pewter urns. Whereas higher more dangerous areas could offer the gold and silver every adventurer wants to find. Not sets upon sets of chain mail armor...
This would also help with everybody being constantly encumbered 24/7, due to all loot (weapons and armor) having high weight costs, thus anyone carrying loot is reduced to a crawl. This 'trash loot' would be lighter on average, thus allowing the party to move at a more reasonable speed in times of combat or retreat.
Also, 'trash loot' has collectible value, as was discussed on a similar trend in the jewellery crafting thread. (Sauce engines.freeforums.net/thread/205/jewelry-crafting)
I reckon a lot of characters would keep taxidermy, old coins, statues and stuff in their house, once houses get storage or display cases or whatever is planned for them. You could even make some of the planned furniture pieces as trash loot! Like those rugs Gafinsky sells. It gives people something to look for and adds a measure of achievement when you find something rare. Also, you've got plenty of icons in the base NWN2 game to use as trash loot icons. (Here's looking at you unused jewellery slots).
Example of how this would work with the current dungeon system.
Loot nodes offer bucks, consumables, BETTER armor and weapons AND 'trash loot'.
Boss chests offer bucks, consumables, BETTER armor and weapons AND 'trash loot'.
Mobs (the current main source of income), STOP dropping armor and weapons, in place for 'trash loot', and small amounts of bucks and consumables.
The reason I say loot nodes and boss chests should still offer armor and weapons, is because, as some players have pointed out, they don't want to use the crafters as the only way of getting better gear. Loot nodes and boss chests are the way to allow this style of play to be... well, playable. Thus, weapon and armor drops from loot nodes and boss chests could be tailored to be slightly better than your average weapons / armor, maybe with 1 attachment on average. People are more likely then, to keep these weapons and armor they find, and actually trade them if they don't need them themselves. Thus, increasing player to player interactivity both in and outside of dungeons.
This not only means mobs (through their armor & weapon drops) are not the deciding factor of the economy, but loot nodes and bosses will be considered more valuable, thus encouraging exploration and preparation to fight the bosses and go through the entire dungeon at length. Not just finishing your dungeon run based on where the spawns are and ending at the boss door because risk vs reward dictates bashing harmless deaders for a couple of hundred bucks, good. Whereas fighting the Diver for fifty bucks, maybe a cool weapon and possibly dying and losing everything, not good.
I do not think allowing boss chests and loot nodes to drop weapons and armor will cause too much destabilisation in the economy, as they are only lootable once per reset anyway. Thus they cannot be 'farmed' by a group of players, but Mobs will still offer a return for your time, as they will continue to drop this static priced 'trash loot'.
Another advantage of trash loot is that, as it would be priced the same from conception to the end of the server, it is far simpler to balance cash flow from dungeons. Tweaking 1 value on a piece of trash loot I can imagine is much easier than changing the entire crafting system around how much armor and weapons are worth in dungeons.
It might even help with current loot script bugs, such as weapons always seeming to drop at level 1.
What are peoples thoughts on this? Unnecessary? Or are there legitimate merits to considering this new loot system?
I believe the advantages of this new system hugely outweigh the current system. But unfortunately, I have no idea how arduous it would be to implement on the server.
PS: I don't want to make a poll and turn this into a voting thing, I don't think polls are an accurate representation of peoples full opinion, and not everyone who plays has a forum account ^^
No party I ahve ever been in stopped at the diver. Usually the diver is not at home, but we all want to kill him.
