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Post by Kaybrie on Jul 24, 2015 14:36:35 GMT -5
I've been generally sort of hands-offish with the current economy system and its various tweaks and have adopted a fairly 'wait and see' viewpoint on it. I'm posting this today because after these changes, and seeing them in action I've come to understand that the current system will always encourage mad grinding. You either have too much cash coming out of dungeons and they're a nesting ground for the people who want to brute-force their advancement as far ahead of the curve as possible. Or it's too little and even the casual players are forced to make several runs a day just to keep up. I feel finding the middle ground won't be possible, because of the nature of how the rest of the server works. Specifically crafting, which in this system will always be handed to the players who are willing to grind the hardest, and dump the most money into their chosen skill.
I think loot values should be nerfed to far below what they were a day ago, and factions should provide good daily wage on login. (This number could be generated based off your talent level (The one where you increase health, stamina, carry), and compared against crafting costs for keeping your gear up to date assuming you go to a crafter.)
This provides a pacing so people who don't want to spam dungeons get money for being active members of their faction. It also means that people don't have to live in dungeons to keep up their gear, gear will have a natural expected progression, dungeons will be about getting to the boss, and training your skills. Instead of giant loot raids where you have a couple people carrying out 1500lbs worth of metal every hour or so. People who are patient and save up before they go out, could afford to stick mods on their guns so that their grinding time is easier going through.
This also naturally reigns in people who spam dungeons to get as far ahead as possible as fast as possible, since their gear would become limited by a combination of what they find off say boss drops (Which could still allow them to progress quite a bit further then people who don't grind.) their participation in roleplay, events, and their general activity. This also has a side effect of encouraging people to form boss killing groups to try to kill the highest level bosses they can encounter. (These are also somewhat negated by the current system, that see's some crafters bounding ahead of anything I've HEARD of dropping in the crypts.)
There is no solution that will make the server less grindy that involves 'balancing the loot'. I can't see it happening, you increase the value, and people will want to grind more to get better crafted stuff to get further ahead until they're at all 100 skills, and 100 modded gear complaining about how there's 'nothing to do', or you make everything worth less, and... well we all saw the ensuing explosion that happened over that. And even if you manage to find the sweet spot where things sell about right, the rest of the system still rewards the crafters that are willing to dump the most money into their skills via grinding.
I don't think adding reagents to crafting will fix this either, I'm not entirely sure what it will entail, but if it's something else that you can find in dungeons, then it doesn't fix the core problem. (Though how it's implemented might)
The current system encourages crafters to basically dump their cash into an incinerator to get ahead of the competition so more people go to them. Resulting in every other crafter needing to spam the cemetery/whatever future dungeons may come harder so that they can catch up and compete. Some people are just giving up all together instead of even trying to compete in the market because they know that they're just behind some of the first crafter's, so there's no point. Or they're spiting the higher level crafters outright (I get no shortage of bitter messages from people complaining about my prices, which is literally exactly how much it costs to have the weapon crafted). Which also means, crafting isn't a means that players can use to make money, it's literally just there to push people into dungeons as much as possible to get ahead so that they're preferred, so what? They can start charging a 20% labor fee some day down the line and start working to pay back the mountains of cash that they'd already dumped into the system to get to the point where they could charge? (Possibly even having to dump even more in if some other grinder comes along who's able to do it even harder.)
With a living wage instead of a grind-based one, you could bump up the experience you get from crafting, so it advances smoothly along your weapon skills assuming you have even a few regular buyers. Meaning more people could actually take advantage of the crafting system and enjoy it. It would act as a natural normalization across the board that would make dungeons into a matter of training skills, and fighting bosses.
Whether or not my suggestion is considered a viable option, it is my sincere belief that the current system doesn't need to be tweaked, it needs to be reworked.
These are my thoughts, and my suggestion, sorry for the wall of text!
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Post by nippon on Jul 24, 2015 15:19:40 GMT -5
Completely agree. Would love to see a factional wage system. As you say it would encourage rp over grind fests. Pulling over a grand from solo robbing crypts doesn't seem right.
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Post by FoogooFish on Jul 24, 2015 15:27:11 GMT -5
I've been tempted to suggest something similar, because I think the faction rank and income system from Sundren (with which many players here are familiar) might be a good solution to the economy situation. It'd also encourage folks to join the existing factions, which in turn helps the DMs keep their focus.
All-in-all, I think that faction income should definitely be a thing.
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Post by takenbythestormx on Jul 24, 2015 16:00:08 GMT -5
I think this would be neat honestly. Maybe incorporate something so that if other people in your faction get an event and earn the faction some cash, the wealth is shared and all faction members for that next pay tick, even the ones not able to/excluded from the event see some benefit.
And at the same time if your faction goes out on a mission and makes poor choices and messes up, perhaps losing the faction some money, the next day's wage will be a little bit lower than usual.
In 3.5 I'm normally a pretty heavy grinder. I like killing things. I like powerbuilding. With this new system I've felt a lot less pull just to grind my ass off apart from the money.
I feel like walking around the market, it's usually a ghost town because there's already 8+ people grinding the crypt together and another 6 waiting at the entrance for their turn.
Anyway I'm about to go poof for 2 weeks so Charlie will be MIA until around the 8th. I'm sure there will be drastic changes by the time I return. *Shrug.*
TLDR, YOU GET OFF TOPIC TOO MUCH, SORCERER'S SWAG, I agree with Kaybrie.
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pochoclo
Gumshoe
Clockwork Detect THIS!
Posts: 74
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Post by pochoclo on Jul 24, 2015 16:10:40 GMT -5
My (admittedly limited) experience with wage systems has been so far that people tend to take it for granted and they grind to have more money on top of it, making it somewhat ineffective.
Mechanical balance is one of the hardest things to achieve in any game, and this server is not the exception. We're working on finding the right balance for things, it might take a while but we'll get there.
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Post by Kaybrie on Jul 24, 2015 16:29:23 GMT -5
My (admittedly limited) experience with wage systems has been so far that people tend to take it for granted and they grind to have more money on top of it, making it somewhat ineffective. Mechanical balance is one of the hardest things to achieve in any game, and this server is not the exception. We're working on finding the right balance for things, it might take a while but we'll get there. I'm sorry if my post came off as a little gloomy, I actually really have no problem where I'm at in the current system, and as it continues to change as a player who honestly does enjoy going out and grinding regularly. The suggestion was aimed more toward the complaints I get in regards to the amount of wealth that players get doing things that should not at all be feasible (carrying 1500lbs of scrap metal back to the market, then finding a buyer). Removing that, but redistributing a fair amount of wealth back through a 'faction wage' would normalize things, it wouldn't get rid of grinding all together, nothing ever will. But giving people who don't want to grind and do that an option I feel would be a good thing, as I feel right now the current system is VERY strongly skewed in favor of those who go out as much as they can. EDIT; also the fact that the current system is incredibly damaging for crafters, anyone new coming to the server will have an incredibly hard time competeing with people already in place as it is... let along people who have invested tens of thousands of gold into their skills just by virtue of the frequency in which they can hit up the crypts.
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Post by sareth675 on Jul 24, 2015 16:36:37 GMT -5
I thought I'll offer my 2 cents on this, given I recently just posted up an economy balance suggestion.
This is the part of your suggestion I agree with. The part crossed out is what I flat out disagree with. You want to reduce the variety of things to do on the server? That's not how you improve the quality of the experience people have, that's how you force people into certain play styles. Join a Faction, or don't have any cash. That's the suggestion, and it's not a healthy one IMO. This is only possible because incendiary grenades are so powerful. If they were increased in price, or removed from the vendors now, this would not be possible. I can assure you of that. I've always felt incendiaries were too powerful, but I haven't seen them 'abused' really, so I've had no reason to ask for them to be nerfed. I don't think they should be, it was an example, I don't actually know anyone who goes through the crypt regularly solo and spams incendiaries for big profits.
My suggestion actually touches on this point. And I do hope you read it Kaybrie, you might find more you agree with in it than nerfing the crap out of dungeon gains.
What reason would people have to train their skills and fight bosses if they have a cushy wage and plenty of faction events? No reason. It just offers something else to do, to break the monotony of RPing the same stuff in the same marketplace until a DM gets on. I don't know about you, but plenty of players enjoy exploring, they enjoy fighting monsters, they enjoy gathering loot. Shafting that side of the community does not solve issues, it creates another one. ___________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
No discussing quotes in this section, just my honest opinion on this change.
I agree that Factions should have a wage. Unfortunately, not all the Factions have been introduced yet, and not everyone wants to be part of one of the Factions available right now (or at all for that matter, some people dislike Faction based content). And what do you do with people who are part of 3 Factions? Do they get 3 sets of wages, or just the highest wage of the 3? Also, is it lore appropriate that all Factions have a wage? The Crowders are gangs and mobs, they get money by robbing, stealing, pimping, drug running. They don't get a salary like the Coppers I imagine. Sure if you're a lawyer for the Del'Mazzi or whoever they are, then they might give you a steady cut. But your average footman wouldn't get dolled out $50 a week for looking hard on street corners. Or the Templars, a religious knightly order, would they have a wage? I highly doubt it. Any money Templar players make I imagine will be given to the church as a tithe. Really, only Coppers and Chesters ought to have a wage, perhaps the educational facilities as well, so 5/9 Factions could be said to lore wise have a wage. That's not exactly encouraging for the 4/9 who will have no source of income if dungeons looting goes the way of the Dodo.
Your suggestion, whilst having merit by offering a reward for joining the Factions, also comes along and says that cash gain from other sources should be nerfed to the point, that the areas are actually a cash loss to go to, thus, pushing people away from them. That's just a waste of some very nicely designed areas. Do you honestly believe people will go to the graveyard if you lose money going there because your consumables are more expensive than what you earn in loot? I don't think they will, that's why no one goes to the bandits. They are simply a cash loss, not a cash gain.
As I said in my long ass post, economy is the hardest thing to balance, but this suggestion simply changes the route which cash comes in, rather than solving the key issue. Giving MORE options for cash gain, is better than making just 1 option viable that everyone has to do. Right now, everyone has to grind, because there is no other way to gain cash. Your suggestion implies that this be turned on its head, that grinding offers no cash incentive, whereas the only way to gain cash is joining one of the factions.
And saying crafting will improve because people have a wage is untrue. Crafting for profit is difficult right now, because some characters are offering crafting at cost to themselves, making them a very attractive choice to players. Those who ask for a fee for their services, naturally will run out of business if crafters continue to offer at cost. Your wage suggestion will not change that. Crafters who wish to earn money on crafting, have to advance their craft higher than those who offer it at cost to themselves. That's simple business strategy. You offer better quality than what is available, people will pay the little extra for it. If you offer the same fare as everyone else, they will choose the cheapest option. That's consumerism.
I truly hope we do not go back to the vendor rates yesterday / the day after, and I really hope they don't become even more punitive than that. However, I do wholeheartedly think, some Factions should have a wage.
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Post by Fuzz on Jul 24, 2015 16:52:24 GMT -5
The crafting materials are sold for cheap because this is a beta and we want you testing the crafting system.
At true launch they'll only sell the most basic stuff and you'll have to go out and find the rest. A lot of that MIGHT be in dungeons, but it might also just be going out and exploring, or traveling some distance to a different region (eventually...) to get it there, then bring it back (and possibly have to pay import taxes) and craft with that.
A really, really long term goal is to make access to crafting equipment also a task, where you will have to pay hefty dues to the guild for access, or, (again eventually) you can rent a housing space somewhere in the city not unlike an inn room, where you can buy and place your own crafting stuff and build your own workshop.
This is all pipe (no, not that Pipe) dreams right now, first we need to get all of Calidor in and get the current systems ironed out. Our team currently consists of 5 people, only 2 of which are really able to build and script areas. (Hint hint, help out and invest in the server's future!)
But yeah, what Poch said re: scripted wages... it's all a WIP (like YMD's posting!) and we're still figuring things out.
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Post by dathi255 on Jul 24, 2015 17:03:17 GMT -5
I was about to respond to this thread, but then had to read the responses of others that had replied before me. In a nutshell, Sareth seems to have posted everything I had thought of, just put better than I could have. I would just hit the like button but that may go overlooked. What I will add to this discussion is simply that I am one of the people that likes grinding. I like killing monsters a lot, it's fun for me, and I could sit down for a few hours (or more) and just kill deaders. A lot of people IG have come to know my character for it. But if loot got dropped even harder than it was yesterday? I wouldn't grind as there would be no reward (I no longer gain proficiency exp as the mobs are too easy I suppose, and I need only money to get my armour upgraded above level 1), and could only sit around and RP. Now, I'm an EU player so RP can be difficult with only 3 people online (2 of 3 I know well IRL ), so I log off. I come on later in the day when the US begins to wake up, 10 people online. Cool, I go RP for a bit, maybe I get into an event, maybe I don't. How long would this go on for? After all, given enough time there's little to talk about other than the weather... Or events, which one may or may not get into based on location, Faction and other things. This would drive me away from the server, as the draw from the setting and potential RP is outweighed by the lack of rewarding things to do when RP gets a bit stale. Perhaps I don't have enough faith in the ability to generate RP from the setting, and I may be proven wrong in the future, but I've seen a lot of RP servers go down this route when the content begins to drop off or becomes more difficult/unrewarding than it is worth. Simply put, I think alternative ways to fixing the economy is a better way of doing it than nerfing dungeoneering.
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Post by Fuzz on Jul 24, 2015 17:23:12 GMT -5
Even though sareth wrote a veritable dissertation on why the Team shouldn't just dismiss suggestions and ideas as beating a dead horse, I will say that there is no Team stance that adventuring should cost you money and not be sustainable in and of itself.
The current drops are possibly a little too high, but they're closer to our ideal goal than the pittance you guys were earning 2 days ago.
What I have said in the past is that adventuring, in the D&D sense of the word, isn't actually a profession in this setting. At least not one that a lot of people would pursue. There are handfuls of people that might consider themselves adventurers and not have an actual day job, but even Teddy Roosevelt had a day job, and someone that just goes out looking for excitement and action would be considered by most (not unlike in real life) to be irresponsible, immature, and possibly slightly insane. They'd be the exception, not the rule.
That said, you can be that crazy uncle that that one kid at school always talked about, who had more money and fewer morals than sense. Just don't expect to get any IC respect or be taken seriously by anyone ICly, and don't cry when DMs don't go out of their way to accommodate your decidedly self-serving playstyle.
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Post by mireigi on Jul 24, 2015 18:44:20 GMT -5
Adventuring should be the most lucrative method of income, but should also be the most dangerous.
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Post by Kaybrie on Jul 24, 2015 18:56:28 GMT -5
WALL OF TEEEEXT~~
Sareth, I didn't put down the intricate details of how we could work around anything because I was spit balling an idea. Everything you said could easily be worked around with a little bit of thought.
This gem actually made me a little angry, no it isn't, go back and read what I wrote before you make a post telling me what I said. I said that the cash from junk loot specifically dropped by the mobs from the server should be moved into another pay-wage system integrated with factions. That doesn't include boss loot, it doesn't include chest loot, and that also doesn't preclude that a "Day Job" option couldn't be applicable to a character that didn't join a faction to get similar benefits. And just because the basic system I suggested sounds like a salary doesn't mean it needs to be implemented as thus. It doesn't mean it needs to be roleplayed that way. As for people who join all three factions, so what? The formula I suggested was giving a wage that allowed a character to see regular progression without needing to grind as much, it doesn't say anything about people in three factions getting more then people in one. Maybe the character divides their time between the three, so naturally is a part timer in each? This could be roleplayed in any number of ways.
Again, putting words in my mouth and telling me what I meant when you clearly aren't getting it.
Why would someone go out to do dungeons and fight bosses?
1) Chest loot, the opportunity to make a little extra on top of your living wage. 2) Boss loot gives the opportunity to generate more cash on top of that living wage as well as provide unique challenges. (Once it's fixed *shaking fist*) 3) Having money also doesn't raise your skills themselves, so if you sit around and just log in daily until you can afford a full set of level 100 gear, you'll still be a level 1 character with level 0 skills that wouldn't take advantage of any of those level 100 item stats. So you'd still need to go out and do something in order to build those stats. (And go through the process of buying all the intermediate gear no less because items with huge disparity between your skill number and the item level don't give XP)
So yeah, there's still reasons to go out and do dungeons, the main reasons in fact one goes out to do dungeons are all still intact. Only one of those reasons (Junk loot) I feel should just be moved somewhere else. The number of things to do on the server wouldn't change AT ALL with this suggestion, if anything it would simply give people who don't want to grind as much more leeway not to. So the number of things that you could do without suffering for it would actually increase.
Yes, because people want to train their skills, and there will be awesome loot to be had from forming parties to go take down higher and higher level bosses. You'll also be given an assortment of money to put toward your gear/consumables to go out and kill things and fight bosses. The money doesn't disappear Sareth, junk loot specifically would just be redistributed, that's the point that your post fails again and again to recognize. Also; nobody is subjective, I go down to bandits periodically with others, as do people go and run spiders, as to people still run beetles. Most, if not all of which I can say don't earn you much money, nothing comparable to the cemetery anyways.
Crafting for profit doesn't exist as of now, and when it finally starts happening, it will be rewarded to the players who spent the most number of hours grabbing junk to throw at merchants in the trade quarter, with nobody else being able to come close to competing with them. I flatly disagree with this, and hope it will not be the pattern going forward. (Fuzz's posts reassures me on that)
And yes, I have read your posts and agree on some points. I don't however believe tweaks can fix the core problems of the current system (Though I may be wrong), hence why I haven't actively been a part of that discussion. I am making my own observations based off the feedback I receive from other players as well as my own experiences in regards to grinding here, and putting forward a suggestion to make it more fun for a variety of players (If you look above you'll see a few agree with me), if you don't agree with it please put down some good reasons, but please don't come in here to snipe/poke holes, or make broad assumptions like "You want to reduce the variety of things to do on the server?" Which are blatantly false. Putting words in my mouth and negative assumptions about my meaning also does nothing to help your case, it's a trick used in politics to get people on your side. Please don't bring that here.
Fuzz, I'm just putting forward my thoughts and a suggestion based on my observations/what I've heard. I'm very hopeful that this can be a civil discussion that might help generate more idea's.
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Post by drunkensolamnic on Jul 24, 2015 19:05:32 GMT -5
For what its worth... I'd be down with factions having a weekly pay-day. I dont see any reason for this to be coupled with any changes. though I do feel the current return on loot is too high. Its going to be hard to justify taking 100 bucks from a faction a week to do miserable grunt work when you can make that taking down three skeletons.
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Post by kingofaquilonia on Jul 24, 2015 20:48:06 GMT -5
I really don't want to see character/crafting progression come to a screeching halt, so long as I can get a level in a crafting skill per day I'm happy.
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Post by judicator on Jul 24, 2015 20:59:59 GMT -5
So you think 100 days (how many hours each day?) is the appropriate investment for a max-level skill?
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