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Post by electrohydra on Jul 27, 2015 16:18:47 GMT -5
So, hey PE I heard you about not getting balance feedback, so here's my first topic about it, addressing a topic that's been on my mind since SMG was released. The balance between different types of guns. I had a very good feeling that guns that fired less often where (much?) better then those that fired less often. But I didn't want to come with just a hunch, so I decided to crunch the numbers. DISCLAIMER : These numbers are not -perfect-, but they're the best that I've got. Some skills/levels/properties may be able to make certain weapons better, but I doubt it would change very drastically. NOTE : These numbers are using level 1 humans, with level 1 guns and no particular skills of any relevance, shooting while standing still, for both the target and the attacker. LINKSome things to note : It seems the few-shots / many shots theory I had is not totally true. Revolvers and pistols are comparable despite one being 3 times as many attacks per round, with the first being slightly better against high dodge, low DR targets, and the second the opposite. And carabine actually seems slightly better then rifles, thanks to the small boost from it's better reload factor (Anyone see that one coming? Not me!), even against high DR targets. SMGs and handguns are terrible and desperately need a buff, confirming my suspicions there. While the numbers may not be exact the massive difference between them and their respective counterparts doesn't lie. They both need a buff, and badly, if they are to be competitive at all.
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Post by nippon on Jul 27, 2015 16:40:37 GMT -5
What the SMG loses in versatility is made up in style. In all seriousness though it kinda stinks unless you're popping those 3x crits all the time, which even then gets mitigated by DR pretty hard.
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Post by sporked on Jul 27, 2015 17:56:51 GMT -5
Armor working the way it has so far, I can say only hunting rifle of all the options has been at all appealing. Players aren't at all intimidated by guns, which proved a problem while acting as a Copper trying to get them to stop waving their own around in public (Announcing an intent to fire and publicly loaded even), and mobs often time are toating a LOT of armor, on top of base DR (Deaders, Skellies). The only weapon guaranteed to perform is the Hunting Rifle. The others all stand a significant chance of being 100% mitigated. And no, having a weapon that is only sometimes good isn't acceptable from what I've seen, if you can't drop that heavy armored two handed toating wrecking ball before it drops your tank, you die. Even if you killed all his kindly unarmored buddies. And fellas like those? They haven't been rare.
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Post by kingofaquilonia on Jul 27, 2015 18:49:15 GMT -5
I'd definitely say shotguns need a buff....but Axel uses the SMG with a 4 marksmanship rating, the smg is unmodified.. . and he shreds unarmored targets . You aren't going to get guns that fire that many rounds to be good vs armor because otherwise they would be BROKEN.
More shots per round= less fire power. It's a balance thing.
Shotguns desperately need a buff though IMO as they being one shot a round... don't do any dmg vs anything with any armor kinda blows.
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Post by electrohydra on Jul 27, 2015 18:57:43 GMT -5
I didnt include shotguns into my analysis because being hybrid weapons I don't consider them to be guns proper. Or at least, not dedicated ranged weapons. As for your claim about SMGs, I have some serious doubts that it's more effective then another two handed gun. Sure, it hurts unarmored targets a lot, but any weapon will hred targets with 0-2 DR or whatever (I assume you refer to wolves). There is no amount of dodge where the increased hit per rounds from the extra attacks will be even nearly enough to compensate for the much, much lower base damage.
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Post by kingofaquilonia on Jul 27, 2015 19:10:18 GMT -5
Axel was walking around the Cemetary shootin' things
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Genbor
Gumshoe
"If you die, don't come crying to me about it."
Posts: 81
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Post by Genbor on Jul 27, 2015 22:39:17 GMT -5
I never got a chance to go and check out SMGs because the damned thing just costs too much in shop, and I couldn't craft it up till this point (hoping I can soon). With that said, I use a Carbine for the 20 Rifle Rounds it gives, and sometimes the armored opponents tell me "Your weapon is completely ineffective. Repent Mortal!". That being said, I still like Carbine more than the Hunting Rifle, as 5 Rifle Rounds is gone so incredibly fast, and with no point blank shot they are mostly misses from up close.
Anyway, Shotguns would definitely need an upgrade for their secondary shooting damage, as a shotgun should be shredding things from up close, not do 3 damage and the bullet bounce off. Even with Military Shells where it's supposed to work better against Armored opponents I found that it does absolutely nothing.
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Post by Fuzz on Jul 28, 2015 9:45:37 GMT -5
Balance is a big thing to work on, which is why is like to reiterate that even though skill respec is in now, please try and avoid rrspeccing just because some other thing is better. That would mean no one is using whatever isn't working well to give us the feedback we need to fix it.
On the topic of shotguns, I think there was a plan at one point to have them give a chance at temporarily dazing or knocking down targets, to drive home the whole up close melee focus. Tesla clip shotguns are pretty badass, though.
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Post by ronan on Jul 28, 2015 10:26:10 GMT -5
I also noticed shotguns have "Military Shells" which are specifically oriented towards armored targets. This would need to be taken into account in any testing of them. Buckshot might not cut it.
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Genbor
Gumshoe
"If you die, don't come crying to me about it."
Posts: 81
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Post by Genbor on Jul 28, 2015 10:41:09 GMT -5
I also noticed shotguns have "Military Shells" which are specifically oriented towards armored targets. This would need to be taken into account in any testing of them. Buckshot might not cut it. Tested and true, if you scroll up a bit.
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Post by Sobriquet on Jul 28, 2015 10:47:22 GMT -5
The problem with the hybrids weapons in general tends to be that both attacks are understandably not as powerful as their pure types, e.g. a longsword on main hand does more melee damage than a shotgun swing and a rifle more than a shotgun blast. The benefit is versatility, but I'm not sure I've been in any situations where I've thought thank god I can switch between shotgun swing and fire easily, especially when I could alternatively just hit a hotbar key and switch weapons between a greatsword for melee and rifle for range. I've also yet to run into any situation where shotgun swings are better for X, while shooting better against Y. The times I've used a shotgun its felt as if shooting it until you run out of stamina does more damage than swinging it with horrible dual wield AB and club base damage, but even firing it doesn't do all that much.
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Post by Fuzz on Jul 28, 2015 13:41:16 GMT -5
Let's have a separate discussion about melee weapon balancing. I'll split the topics when I get home.
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Post by Sobriquet on Jul 28, 2015 13:54:07 GMT -5
Conceptually anyways, it seems like guns should be oriented towards higher DPS than melee but mainly ineffective at close range. From what I've seen as a twohander though, it feels like I still end up doing more DPS, sans maybe in comparison to high end hunting rifle users, who put out similar damage.
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Brooker
Just Wandered In
The truth doesn't matter, It only matters what the people believe.
Posts: 25
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Post by Brooker on Jul 28, 2015 16:33:21 GMT -5
There's a good point made about hybrid weapons and hot key swapping. Does swapping weapons cost stamina, if it doesn't perhaps it should.
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Post by Fuzz on Jul 28, 2015 18:54:22 GMT -5
There's a good point made about hybrid weapons and hot key swapping. Does swapping weapons cost stamina, if it doesn't perhaps it should. Not even sure if that's possible...
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