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Post by Lugwy on Jul 30, 2015 16:21:00 GMT -5
How about "called shot" abilities for the Marksmanship tree? For example, a "Called Shot: leg" would, on top of dealing damage, significantly retard the target's Dodge and movement speed for X rounds, "Called Shot: arm" would force the target to drop their current weapon and impose an AB penalty, etc. The shots will be made with an AB penalty, and count as a full round action.
The abilities don't exactly have to be like that, but it might give ranged combat a little flavour if they could also serve as a debuff platform.
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Post by electrohydra on Jul 30, 2015 21:44:21 GMT -5
First thing first, I'm not sure that giving guns armor penetration in the way you suggest is even possible given the engine we're working with, at least if PE made things work like I think they do under the hood.
Speaking of the reason this thread exists, I'll make you note that I started this thread. And out of the three characters I've played /play, two of them where gunners and the third is a melee / explosives / guns hybrid. So I definitely do care about ranged. I also care about the general system health more.
I won't reply point by point, but I think your issue is that guns don't play like you expect them to play IE you can't kill someone with a few shots before he can close the distance. Well, swords don't work "realistically" either : I takes as many sword swings or spear stabs to kill someone as bullets. This is the cost of having good gameplay. There is a very easy fix to making guns viable : Reduce everyone's hit points by 90%. Unfortunatly, this leads to very bad gameplay, because you couldn't go more then one or two fights without very probably dying. You know, like in real life if you're getting into firefights.
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Genbor
Gumshoe
"If you die, don't come crying to me about it."
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Post by Genbor on Jul 30, 2015 23:40:51 GMT -5
The problem with criticals is that they are inconsistent. In NWN1 you could essentially get to a 12-20 critical chance, where relying on criticals was understandable. With a 5% chance to hit with criticals, it's best not to think of it as something that's natural. I also don't think increasing critical chance would be a good idea, since criticals would in turn do too much damage.
The problem with end game getting 15+ damage for guns, is that gun damage is not the only thing that scales, but end game armor also goes up. Besides, relying on endgame to make something viable isn't generally a good idea for a mechanic, as getting to that endgame viable state still takes hard work, made harder if the early to mid game isn't up to par. That said, I agree that the endgame does look to be designed in a way that it could work, what needs tweaking is the weak early stage we are in at currently.
On the note of Activated Abilities, I like Lugwy's idea of a Called Shot: Leg, as it could help against Light Armored opponents who close in the distance quickly enough. Slowing them down and lowering their Dodge Bonus would help with evening out the field a little, and perhaps something what nippon mentioned, with how Carbine could get increased damage over each consecutive hit. Could call it something like [Focused Fire], where it's basically you target the same spot over and over weakening the defense of that area, but the damage only last until consecutive hits. On the first miss, or an amount of time has passed since the last attack made against that target, the effect cancels and you'd have to activate it again. I can see this working well against slow heavy armors, where you have a chance to fire off a few rounds before they close in on you.
As for you creating the thread, I am grateful. But creating a thread and caring about balancing are not necessarily the same, especially if you just shrug the whole thing off with "besides do something else okay?". Having said that, I admit I was a bit tired and irate at the time of writing the post, and I might have gone a bit beyond of reasonable. I apologize.
Moving on, it does indeed not play as I expect them to play, as I expect guns to work properly and fairly. If there is a penalty for shooting at close range, then that must mean that the damage is so high as to make this balancing choice. But it is not, since the damage is anything but great, like you said, pretty much it takes as much swings with a melee weapon to kill an opponent as it takes to shoot them with bullets. What's different? Let's take a look at the list again:
1. Melee Weapons
- You can only fight in melee range, but distances in NWN1-2 are not great enough for it to be such a big detriment. You can cover the ground in a round or two. - Once you have a melee weapon you only need to focus on buying a new, better weapon later on once your skill is high. - Swinging melee does not require stamina, so you can essentially swing forever. - Since you are up and personal you need to buy potions. - Melee has Activated Abilities, abilites which help with fighting against opponents.
2. Ranged Weapons
- You can only fight in long range, but distances in NWN1-2 are not great enough for it to be a boon. The enemies can cover the ground in a round or two. - Once you have a gun, you need to buy ammunition, and keep replenishing it, along with the need to save up for a better gun once your skill level is high. - Shooting with a gun requires ammunition, ammunition that runs out and requires stamina to reload. This makes it essentially so that each shot costs stamina, and you can only shoot as long as you don't run out of either stamina and/or bullets, so attacking is finite. - Since it's so easy to cover distances, gunners get up and personal quite often when not in a party, therefore you need to buy potions.
I hope you see where I am going with this. Ranged weapons have all those penalties imposed, and there's not even a just reason for them being in place. Let's check what the Lore says:
This implies that progress, along with guns, is equally reliable if not more so than the old traditional sword swinging. Coupled with the fact that the Armsmen in the Prologue, are armed with guns that are nowhere to be found in the game itself, and are quite powerful, so expectations going in are quite high. There's a flash of a promise of "guns" and then it's gone the first time you get your pistol.
Complaints about the melee system should go to the melee thread so I will not go into that. Also, I completely disagree with your suggestion. Lowering everyone's Health by 90% is NOT a viable solution, and is a mockery, so I'm sure even you didn't think of it as a possibility and were merely jesting.
Somebody also asked if guns like Hunting Rifles and Carbines had longer range than Pistols and Revolvers, and my answer is yes, they do. In the Graveyard, which is a moderate map by NWN2 standards, you can stand close to Willy's Hut and hit those that spawn near the Crypt entrance. Skeletons who are agile and fast will still make it to you in three or so rounds.
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Post by kingofaquilonia on Jul 31, 2015 0:13:11 GMT -5
I don't believe guns were ever meant to be an all the time weapon, you fire as they close in on you, or fire the whole fight if you are with a party.
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Genbor
Gumshoe
"If you die, don't come crying to me about it."
Posts: 81
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Post by Genbor on Jul 31, 2015 0:18:08 GMT -5
If that is the case, then I guess there's nothing else to do but buff Pistol/Revolver/etc., damage so that not just Carbine and Hunting Rifles are worth something in a fight (maybe SMGs too, since I've never tried them I can't say).
If this really is the case. Just the existence of Hybrid Weapons hints that melee is one way to do things, ranged guns is another way, and hybrid is the bridge between the two, which is the jack of all trades but master of none.
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Post by eba on Jul 31, 2015 8:02:00 GMT -5
Your character will walk up and smash the face of a gunner. I dare say Ziska can probably beat any three gunner chars on the server provided no one throws firebombs at each other.
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Post by eba on Jul 31, 2015 8:25:33 GMT -5
I don't believe guns were ever meant to be an all the time weapon, you fire as they close in on you, or fire the whole fight if you are with a party. THis idea only works if you have enough ability points to be able to reasonably switch between weapons. So far, you most certainly don't.
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Post by electrohydra on Jul 31, 2015 8:55:01 GMT -5
It wasn't a suggestion as a solution to the gun "problem". If that where implemented (Which I don't think it should be at all, because it would make the game terribly unfun) then people would be scared of guns, a well-placed bullet would kill you, and being able to fight at a distance would be an advantage. AKA guns would behave as they do in real life.
Your comparison between the two is assuming that you are soloing. I'll go ahead and say that I don't think that there is a way to make guns viable for solo yet not overpowered in party fights (And no, armor penetration isn't the solution. Unless the numbers are outrageously huge, then you'll still get melee'd and be in relative trouble, and if they are then when in a party you'll make all the meleers nothing more then meat shields.), so I'm going to go and say that making guns as attractive an option as melee in a party and saying "Well, you can't solo" is going to be best we can do to make things fun for everyone. (PvP is also super tricky to balance: Called shot actually seems like a great idea there, to make kiting possible)
So let's look at the advantages and disadvantages of guns over melee in a party :
Advantages : -Can fire off a round or two before the actual fighting starts. -Can always attack, no matter the terrain (Very useful when using chock points) -Much more rarely hit, so need to use less potions. -Damage? (At least, it should in my opinion, deal a little more then most meleers)
Disadvantages : -No activated abilities for things like crowd control -Need at least one meleer in the party. A party of only melee works (not optimally, but it works), a party of only guns doesn't. -Need to buy ammo. (Although I've found this to not really be a huge issue, ammo costs aren't that high. Try playing a grenadier....) -If engaged in melee despite the front line, your effectiveness is greatly reduced.
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Genbor
Gumshoe
"If you die, don't come crying to me about it."
Posts: 81
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Post by Genbor on Jul 31, 2015 9:16:57 GMT -5
I agree with your Party based gun assesment, that was pretty much spot on, but there is still a need to reconsider all of the damage done by all types, not just guns.
It seems like the best option for solo play that would still "makes things fun for everyone" would be to introduce a Point Blank Shot ability after all. This would set aside those who only use guns as secondary backup weapons and those who are using it as a primary weapon. This would set aside the rookie enthusiasts and the trained marksmen, but at the cost of Ability Points needing to be spent.
This would make guns in solo more viable, and wouldn't really impact on overall damage, only look at things from a fairer side.
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Post by drunkensolamnic on Jul 31, 2015 9:21:52 GMT -5
I don't believe guns were ever meant to be an all the time weapon, you fire as they close in on you, or fire the whole fight if you are with a party. THis idea only works if you have enough ability points to be able to reasonably switch between weapons. So far, you most certainly don't. Its almost like we're all low level and shouldn't be expecting to have an easy time or an individual performance that can answer every problem yet? I feel the server is in a good place balance wise for team-play. If you focus on trying make everything able to solo, then you're going to have a game that's too easy and no fun.
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Post by Fuzz on Jul 31, 2015 9:23:50 GMT -5
Honestly, most guns should really only fire once a round with an option to talent a Rapid Fire mode that gives - 6 AB on a second shot of something. Bullet damage should keep its current level but they should get an inverse crit modifier based on range, such that your chance of critting at closer ranges is much higher and with a buffed multiplier because guns can really fuck you up at close range if the bullet hits the right spot. In general guns should have a decent crit chance and hit really hard when they do crit.
Have scopes and sniper talents invert that relationship so they're super terrible at close range but if you take the time to aim at a distance target for two or three rounds, you can make a Sniper Shot with that same crit boost so you can hit crazy hard, but it takes up a lot of stamina and has a minute long cooldown or something.
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Genbor
Gumshoe
"If you die, don't come crying to me about it."
Posts: 81
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Post by Genbor on Jul 31, 2015 10:51:12 GMT -5
Honestly, most guns should really only fire once a round with an option to talent a Rapid Fire mode that gives - 6 AB on a second shot of something. Bullet damage should keep its current level but they should get an inverse crit modifier based on range, such that your chance of critting at closer ranges is much higher and with a buffed multiplier because guns can really fuck you up at close range if the bullet hits the right spot. In general guns should have a decent crit chance and hit really hard when they do crit. Have scopes and sniper talents invert that relationship so they're super terrible at close range but if you take the time to aim at a distance target for two or three rounds, you can make a Sniper Shot with that same crit boost so you can hit crazy hard, but it takes up a lot of stamina and has a minute long cooldown or something. You know, I'm actually digging this idea, but would that mean that guns still retain their easy to miss attitude at close range, but the trade off is that when they hit, they hit hard?
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Post by Fuzz on Jul 31, 2015 11:01:31 GMT -5
Honestly, most guns should really only fire once a round with an option to talent a Rapid Fire mode that gives - 6 AB on a second shot of something. Bullet damage should keep its current level but they should get an inverse crit modifier based on range, such that your chance of critting at closer ranges is much higher and with a buffed multiplier because guns can really fuck you up at close range if the bullet hits the right spot. In general guns should have a decent crit chance and hit really hard when they do crit. Have scopes and sniper talents invert that relationship so they're super terrible at close range but if you take the time to aim at a distance target for two or three rounds, you can make a Sniper Shot with that same crit boost so you can hit crazy hard, but it takes up a lot of stamina and has a minute long cooldown or something. You know, I'm actually digging this idea, but would that mean that guns still retain their easy to miss attitude at close range, but the trade off is that when they hit, they hit hard? That's the idea, yeah.
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Post by kingofaquilonia on Jul 31, 2015 15:58:00 GMT -5
I like the sniper idea, and something vice versa for shotguns.
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Post by Kitsunenotsume on Jul 31, 2015 16:08:54 GMT -5
*waits to give input till he sees what optics other than reflex sight does*
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