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Post by kingofaquilonia on Jul 28, 2015 19:01:48 GMT -5
Steering this topic back on course, as one of the people on the server that's trying to make TWF work, it really doesn't at the moment. I miss more often than the two-handers, I deal less damage when I do hit, and my perceived 'advantage' against lighter armor is moot because they dodge better which means my to-hit chance is even worse than if they were a tank in heavy armor. I see no practical reason to try and continue to make the playstyle work. I've been saying this for awhile. Dual wielders definitely need help! I also think light armor might need some boosts as I see AB is likely going to heavily outscale any possible amount of dodge you can get. ALSO I'd like to make a possible suggestion.... not sure if its a good one? I'd like to see light shields give you a dodge bonus and not an armor bonus , would help make the light armor , sword and shield dodge tanks a lil more viable.
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Post by BlackmoreKnight on Jul 28, 2015 19:08:10 GMT -5
Sword and shield gets a line that reduces stamina penalty for block by up to 25%. Combine that with the block tree that gives more stamina regen and your penalty for being in block with sword/shield is greatly reduced.
In addition, looking at block values, shield rests at a solid 6. Swords are at 2 or 3 base. So yeah, a TWF will have comparable block to a shield. At skill level 100. But they'll burn stamina faster (Maybe augmented by being in light/mediuma rmor instead of heavy as a sword/shield is always going to be), and for 90% of their playtime they won't block as often.
I don't see the argument for sword/shield being worse than TWF at blocking.
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Post by frenzied on Jul 28, 2015 19:12:16 GMT -5
So I've played nwn/nwn2 servers for a while and have a pretty good grasp on the mechanics and inner workings of the game.
I'll throw out my observations:
Warhammers/Greathammers are king. Having reliable, significantly higher base damage utterly trumps have a high crit range or high crit multiplier. In the case of power attack for two handers, using it effectively means you're getting a free crit for it by trading in your lower AB second attack. With anecdote I can say that the rapier (even when given bells and whistles) is drastically outperformed by the warhammer.
Statistically- The warhammer runs a 1-19 for its die roll, which comes out to a 10, and has a +4 base. That means that the average damage on a hit is 14.
The rapier runs a 1-11 die roll, which has a 6 average damage, and a +4 base, which puts it at 10 average damage per hit.
The rapier has a 18-20 crit range for x2, and when given the mercurial core can have x3, which would make its average crit a 30 at the cost of 1 AB. The warhammer, on the other hand, has a 20 x2, which means it would have an average crit of 28. That means if you're a lucky bastard and consistently roll 18-20s and can confirm your crits, you'll edge out a base warhammer with no upgrades using a rapier.
Unfortunately for the rapier, when armor is thrown into the mix it becomes drastically worse due to its inability to reliably penetrate. A person in light armor against a mercurial tipped rapier has an AC edge that prevents critical hits from landing regularly, and even in padded armor you can get a good 7.5 average for armor rolls, meaning that in a purely average situation you'd be taking 2.5 damage a hit in the 25% of the time that you'll be getting hit. AC doing its job will turn crits into a very rare occurance.
Against heavy armor? You'll be landing hits and critical hits more easily, but they will be soaked like a desert soaking rain. An average armor roll for someone toting fullplate at 0-30 armor will come in at an even 15, which also happens to be the rapier's maximum damage. Not to mention some of the fun upgrades for armor that drastically mitigate critical hits. Good luck out there, foppish heroes.
The warhammer? It gives no fucks and will set you on fire while doing it. Instead of taking the mercurial core you can have goodies like fire, frost, or electricity, while having a full AB to boot. Against a light armored enemy, you'll be able to land hits that outstrip their armor with an average penetration of 6.5, or close to 3x that of the rapier. Against our heavy armor example, you'll only be 1 damage behind their average armor. At least your maximum damage can outstrip their average armor, and when using elemental damage instead of a mercurial core, you'll be melting/burning/freezing the poor bastard to death since you'll be smashing their face repeatedly with the stupid thing.
As far as two handers go, power attacking means you will be turning everything into corpses without equal if you use a greathammer instead of any other two hander. The spear drill is nice, but who needs a penetrating hit when you can just hulk smash someone in the face with a greathammer, and have the potential to not only do damage on par with the spear, but if combine that with rolling low they are completely screwed.
All the other weapons are pretty on par with each other, except for the joke ones like clubs and knives, but those two FAR FAR FAR outperform their peers.
On another subject: Block is just not useful, because it is hardcoded to be broke dick in NWN and NWN2. It is almost utterly worthless for light armor users, because the only rolls that will hit you in the first place require an opposed roll to deflect. A hit that hits you is one that you are statistically unlikely to parry. For heavy armor users it is marginally more useful, but unfortunately only blocks one attack per flurry in a NWN2 combat round, which means at our levels it'll only be ATTEMPTING to block one of the two attacks in a round. It is situationally useful for mitigating the occasional hit.
Where it really comes through as just sucking is the opportunity cost. Instead of focusing down one target and bashing/stabbing it to death, your block/riposte attacks are randomly distributed to whoever in a swarm you manage to randomly block. Battles in DND largely come down to damage races, and when you're blocking/parrying you are drastically reducing your damage output while only minimally raising your survivability. Block as a skill would need some MAJOR buffs to become useful.
Two PCs of comparable level going at each other, one blocking, the other on the offensive, will end in tears for the player blocking. I can promise this.
Gunchat- Guns are hilarious and I can't quite get a tell on them yet. Two handers are king for damage, and can actively maneuver for that sweet, sweet flanking damage. Only downside is that they can get torn up in melee combat, but usually once the AI sets in it stops caring who it is hitting. Guns just get to sit there and plink away in safety if the line is doing its job. The only time I can think of that guns REALLY come into their own over two handers is if you are in extremely cramped quarters, using chokepoints instead of maneuvering for flanks, or if you just have so many dudes in melee that you can't actually fit on a target that is getting focused down.
Also, from what I've seen TWF is pretty bad when compared to two handing. The loss of AB and 1/2 damage on the off hand that is already an inferior weapon just sort kills it. And when abilities are brought into the mix, it still falls behind a good ol' two hander with the same amount. Maybe elemental damage spam on a low AC target could bring it up to par?
My final note, whips OP. Nerf whips. The sound is so terrifying that I must log off and tremble in fear for hours every time an NPC tries to whip me. I suggest instead replacing these with foam fingers so that they do the same amount of damage without the fear inducing aspect.
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Post by drunkensolamnic on Jul 28, 2015 19:25:38 GMT -5
Power attack is a full round action, you get no second attack when you use it.
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Post by electrohydra on Jul 28, 2015 19:58:17 GMT -5
Power attack is, as I pointed it out earlier, -really- OP and definitely needs a nerf (or it's counterparts in the other trees a buff.) It basically reads, even only at level 1, as "Your second attack this round gets +5 AB and ignores armor"
Although that's getting slightly off topic, as I think the different fighting modes need to be balanced not considering their abilities, and the abilities balanced against each other.
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Post by drunkensolamnic on Jul 28, 2015 20:08:24 GMT -5
What are you talking about? It says "As a full round action you make a single melee attack dealing 100% more damage." Its basically a crit.. if you can hit it, at cost of a second attack.
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Post by electrohydra on Jul 28, 2015 20:12:06 GMT -5
Or, you know, two hits, except the second hit is mixed into the first, using the first's AB (So +5 compared to it's normal, second attack AB) and since you're a two-hander your first attack almost certainly used up all of the target's DR roll, or almost tops, so the +100% damage (like a second attack) doesn't have any DR to go through anymore.
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Post by drunkensolamnic on Jul 28, 2015 20:18:45 GMT -5
In practice using Power attack does not retain my full AB. It usually at +3AB, where as my normal AB is +7. Also any impact-movement.. like team-mate using click-attack instead of the drive keys can flat foot you, cost the stamina, and puts you on cooldown.
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Post by Sobriquet on Jul 28, 2015 20:32:51 GMT -5
Power attack retains full AB for me, at least from what I recall.
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Post by drunkensolamnic on Jul 28, 2015 20:37:04 GMT -5
Yeah its weird, it varies back and forth a lot.
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Post by electrohydra on Jul 28, 2015 20:40:17 GMT -5
That sounds like a bug then, and we really shouldn't be balancing around bugs, unless it's a bug that can't be fixed.
Thought you are checking the first number, right? Not the second one? Because abilities are written out as AB + DIE_ROLL = RESULT, not DIE_ROLL + AB = RESULT like normal attacks are.
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Post by Psionic-Entity on Jul 28, 2015 20:41:49 GMT -5
Here is a google doc anyone can use to check out the performance of various weapons and add a bit of actual numbers to what they're saying. Hopefully that will help shorten post length and cut down on subjective calls on which things are and aren't better. docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1nuiv7G_WPLum53RQTOiQkPZFB3NNjcKeBhsvHqjCs_I/edit?usp=sharingSome important things: - If two weapons do equally well against a target with max armor roll equal to the max damage of both weapons, they'll also be equal against all targets with higher armor. - Warhammers and greathammers are indeed OP, in fact they strictly dominate most other weapons. - TWF does need improvements. - There are surprisingly few choices for values that make balanced weapons. It will be easier to balance styles against each other than it will be to provide variety. The general going forward intent for each weapon/armor style: - Dual Wield: Best overall DPS. CC requires 3-4+ enemies to be effective and abilities mostly help single target DPS. Best for autoattacking lone targets or maximizing number of targets hit with sneak/elemental. - Two Handed: Slightly better DPS against high armor targets. CC abilities are always good for 2+ enemies. Best for chopping up small groups and using single target attacks against high difficulty enemies. - Shield: Transfers some DPS to armor and block, has a mix of abilities and lots of knockdown options. Best for soaking damage or preventing damage from high output targets. - Unarmed: Lowest in most things, but cheap on carry and has a stun ability. Best for supports that don't want to invest carry/cash in weapons. - Light: Best AC but overall not the best armor. Has options to increase speed and avoid AOOs. Best to use only with good reason, such as ranged weapons, stealth, support types, etc. - Medium: Average reduction and AC with the best stamina regen. Best for fighting types who want to use abilities or carry utility items. - Heavy: Highest overall survivability but at a cost to utility and offense. Best for characters that either plan to mostly autoattack or who want to go full on damage soak.
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Post by Sobriquet on Jul 28, 2015 21:25:56 GMT -5
With regards to stealth, what are the plans with sneak attack? At the moment, I think the general opinion has been that it's underwhelming.
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Post by Psionic-Entity on Jul 28, 2015 21:36:14 GMT -5
With regards to stealth, what are the plans with sneak attack? At the moment, I think the general opinion has been that it's underwhelming. Little worried about overbuffing but I think it needs some help. Not very many people noticed when it was broken/fixed/had its damage tick rate tripled.
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Post by drunkensolamnic on Jul 28, 2015 21:43:11 GMT -5
What about just reducing the penalty for TWF from -2 to -1? If base AB is +5, -2 is a big hit (40%) where as -1 is significantly smaller.
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