|
Post by eba on Jul 28, 2015 8:33:07 GMT -5
Two handers are the best in the game by far as it stands. Guns trail way behind two handers, and a fair bit behind weapon and shield, though they suffer less then poor two weapon fighters.
DR is god in fighting. More shots make all of 0 difference because those shots will be mitigated massively. bigger hits rule the day, and two handed give the biggest hits while letting you wear armor with the most DR.
|
|
|
Post by drunkensolamnic on Jul 28, 2015 9:10:58 GMT -5
At the same time I am skeptical if this is entirely the case. I'd wait until there's a good bit of experience for people shooting at single DR targets instead of the double DR targets which are the Undead. If it makes you feel any better, swinging at armored skeletons with every damage boosting mod I can get on my weapon, its still not that unusual for me to crit for 0-5 damage.
|
|
|
Post by electrohydra on Jul 28, 2015 11:33:06 GMT -5
Two handers are the best in the game by far as it stands. Guns trail way behind two handers, and a fair bit behind weapon and shield, though they suffer less then poor two weapon fighters. DR is god in fighting. More shots make all of 0 difference because those shots will be mitigated massively. bigger hits rule the day, and two handed give the biggest hits while letting you wear armor with the most DR. I don't think the issue is with two-handing in particular, and more specifically with Powerful Strikes just being so god damn good. If we compare to the similiar abilities in the other fighting trees, it comes out way ahead. Shield Slam only increases damage by 50%, and requires you to use a worst weapon (your shield), and twin strikes is basically +50-ish % damage on your base weapon, except your base weapon has a less damage then the two-hander's on top of that. That said, TWF could probably have it's -2 to hit penalty removed, then it would truly be the carabine to two-handing's rifle. Guns is harder to compare with melee options, which is why my analysis was just trying to get the guns balanced with each other first. I might crunch the numbers on that issue some other time.
|
|
|
Post by Sobriquet on Jul 28, 2015 14:45:05 GMT -5
With regards to two hand effectiveness, I'm not sure it's so much a problem with a particular ability as it is with combat seemingly revolving around damage reduction. Almost any spawn worth its salt seems to have a fair degree of DR, and if it doesn't, the two hander still does perfectly fine against it. A dual wielder against heavy armor will not inflict much damage in comparison to a two hander, and that makes sense as a balance choice, but a dual wielder against light armor will also do pretty poorly in comparison due to low attack bonus vs high AC. There's not really a comparative advantage I see for picking two hand at the moment.
With regards to shielders, they seem to do better on the damage front than dual wielders but worse than two handers. IMO, they should be on the bottom of the DPS game and top at tanking. They certainly seem to do the tanking bit well. That being said, I haven't personally tried out sword and shield.
I've kinda swerved off topic and a lot into melee balance. Maybe it'd be better to create a different thread for it, but at the same time the two aspects can't entirely be looked in isolation. I imagine the idea is for certain guns to be more effective at dealing with different types of armor/combat styles.
Ultimately, I think it'd be nice to know what the system's intentions for each playstyle are, or in other words what the advantages and disadvantages of each style are and how they are meant to compare relatively. That'd make it a lot easier to give feedback on gameplay balance.
|
|
|
Post by mireigi on Jul 28, 2015 14:49:04 GMT -5
Don't forget that Unmarmed, while supposed to be nearly useless against heavy armor until high levels in the Unarmed skill, sees most of its damage removed by Light Armor as well, something which it shouldn't do too much, since leather is woefully inadequate against any form of blunt force.
|
|
|
Post by sareth675 on Jul 28, 2015 15:11:16 GMT -5
I believe some testing similar to what Electrohydra did would benefit any balance case better than simply calling one source of damage better than all others.
If we really want to talk about balancing melee, it would be better to talk about some gross differences in the stats of some weapons over others. Yes it's nice to have variation, but some weapons are just statistically better than others. See, warhammers and greathammers vs all other one handed and two handed variant weapons. Unless in some specific cases (rapiers being good for block), they trump nearly all other options just by merit of having higher raw damage, with no attack malus over say a halberd, claymore, battleaxe or longsword. Just more damage. That's really more something to be 'balanced' first, before offering a truly accurate test of what is better, two handed or other options of damage output.
Some stats to think about.
Greathammer (1): 6-30 damage 5 attack 4 block 5% crit chance 200% crit damage
Claymore (1): 7-23 damage 5 attack 4 block 10% crit chance 200% crit damage.
Also things to think about, weapons like the spear vs halberd. Halberd has 1 more damage type over the spear and has 1 more base block over the spear. Intrinsically better than a spear. Only thing that merits a spear over a halberd, is choice of modifications (and people seem to prefer shield hook over barbed tip anyway). The same applies for the greathammer vs claymore (or any other two handed weapon) debate. But should choice of modifications really merit such vast differences in base stats?
I think rebalancing the base stats of weapons is more crucial than just making everything in line to the two handed weapons effectiveness, or any other damage source.
|
|
|
Post by kingofaquilonia on Jul 28, 2015 15:21:59 GMT -5
The thing about warhammers though is only 5% chance for a x2 crit. where all other weapons with a 5% crit are x3 crits
|
|
|
Post by sareth675 on Jul 28, 2015 15:32:15 GMT -5
Warhammer (1): 5-23 damage (same as a spear / halberd) 5 attack 2 block 5% crit chance 200% crit damage
Handaxe (1): 3-17 damage 5 attack 2 block 5% crit chance 300% crit damage
If on average you're hitting harder, that's generally what matters in combat rather than fluking some huge crits out. Also this has to be thought about when judging the damage those crits will do.
23 x 2 = 46. Max crit from a warhammer 17 x 3 = 51. Max crit from a handaxe.
What I'm trying to point out is, if a weapon has 2 minimum damage over another weapon, and 6 maximum damage, doesn't that merit a 4 attack base rather than a 5 attack base? IMO greathammers and warhammers should have the highest base damage, but only have 4 attack. You swing hard, but your swings are offbalance. You stat for a greathammer, you power attack, you hit REALLY hard, but you have a higher chance of missing. It's a small change that I think would put these two examples in line with other melee variants. But that isn't to speak of other weapon stat discrepancies. See, flail vs battleaxe.
|
|
|
Post by Fuzz on Jul 28, 2015 15:34:02 GMT -5
Spears can get the Drill Head! Who doesn't want a giant drill on a stick?
On an aside, block ratings for blunts should be utter shit, across the board. A claymore should be better at blacking than a big greathammer, simply due to where the weapon is balanced. I'll see if PE agrees and maybe they'll get tweaked. Way I see it:
Swords: Best block, highest minimum damage, moderate max damage, moderate crit chance.
Spears/Piercing stuff: Decent block, highest DR penetration vs light and medium armor, wide damage variance with lowest max damage and lower min damage than Swords, high crit chance.
Hammers: Highest max damage, Highest DR penetration vs heavy armor, decent DR penetration vs Light, worst block by a huge margin, large damage variance with low minimum damage, low crit chance.
Axes: Max damage between hammers and swords, moderate DR penetration that's slightly higher than swords, largest damage variance with lowest minimum damage, highest crit chance and an increased crit damage modifier, block is better than hammers but worse than spears, get a bonus vs blocking targets compared to other weapons.
Not THAT different from baseline D&D, but each weapon type has its merits and strengths. Swords are for blocking and consistency, piercing weapons can crit like mad and tear lighter armor stuff apart while still giving you okay block and being sorta shitty against heavy armor, hammers can put up big numbers but inconsistently and are the go-to for smashing heavy armor but make you pretty vulnerable (maybe a knockdown bonus against you since your balance is so off), and axes have pretty good damage but are hit or miss, but they can put up ridiculous numbers if you crit with one (AXE TO NECK) and are best against shields.
|
|
|
Post by sareth675 on Jul 28, 2015 15:37:03 GMT -5
Whilst I... actually agree and expect everything to be in line like what's being said here... That's actually nothing like the stats of the weapons in game xD They're all just a bit too similar right now... excepting the big variations I've pointed out already. And I think that really is a problem. There needs to be more variation from weapon to weapon in its base stats.
Wait. Do weapons actually have DR penetration based on their damage types? I've not seen this mentioned anywhere.... I mean, common sense would dictate that but... I like being told what does and doesn't work.
EDIT: Also Judicator is right, we're still really early in the system. And that's something to think about when saying "Spears get drills on them!" Maybe they do. But we don't have access to that high level of modification yet.... unless it's just a case of having 20 Engineering, which I don't have yet :*(
|
|
|
Post by judicator on Jul 28, 2015 15:37:57 GMT -5
We're also working with low-level numbers, here; balance may not strike until the mid-levels. Marksmanship and Unarmed, for example, get large bonuses to AB and Damage further down their ability trees. It may be that certain weapon sets "pay off" your misery with power spikes later.
|
|
|
Post by Fuzz on Jul 28, 2015 15:43:20 GMT -5
We're also working with low-level numbers, here; balance may not strike until the mid-levels. Marksmanship and Unarmed, for example, get large bonuses to AB and Damage further down their ability trees. It may be that certain weapon sets "pay off" your misery with power spikes later. This is definitely true of Unarmed, at least in the sense that tech level can make a huge difference. There are some really powerful gauntlet mods later on down the crafting tree, that can only be made at pretty high level crafting.
|
|
|
Post by mireigi on Jul 28, 2015 16:00:31 GMT -5
The issue is that it is currently disheartening to level Unarmed when, due to DR eating up most of the damage, it takes a minute or two to kill a single bandit solo, while sustaining a good portion of injury yourself. Get in a group and the DR spikes so high that you don't do any damage at all, and thus not any skill xp. Very few will ever get Unarmed past 20 for these reasons. See, warhammers and greathammers vs all other one handed and two handed variant weapons. Unless in some specific cases ( rapiers being good for block), they trump nearly all other options just by merit of having higher raw damage, with no attack malus over say a halberd, claymore, battleaxe or longsword. Say what again!? Rapiers are thin brittle weapons made for thrusting at weak spots in your enemy's defenses, their length giving them a distinct advantage over daggers, except in tight spaces. They would break the moment anything strikes them at an angle.
|
|
|
Post by sareth675 on Jul 28, 2015 16:02:06 GMT -5
I'm saying statistically on the server they have a higher block rating than longswords... Don't kill the messenger! D:
Also you're proving how good the NWN2 community seems to be at nitpicking 1 issue out of the potential 5 being displayed ^^
EDIT: Oh deer indeed good sir! I can understand rapiers being good for fencing... but that's really all they were good for. The only reason rapiers came into popularity is because their length and point allowed them to prod (though still cut) lightly armored gunmen without issue. Though really, they are a civilian weapon, whereas broadswords (in our case, longswords / bastard swords) are the true military counterpart. Rapiers vs plate? They would realistically not even pinch through a tiny amount
|
|
|
Post by mireigi on Jul 28, 2015 16:03:15 GMT -5
I'm saying statistically on the server they have a higher block rating than longswords... Don't kill the messenger! D: Also you're proving how good the server seems to be at nitpicking 1 issue out of the potential 5 being displayed ^^ Oh, I'm not. But rapiers with block? Oh deer...
|
|