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Post by kingofaquilonia on Aug 1, 2015 12:39:10 GMT -5
So... I'm not gonna lie... I'm fairly upset about this patch. These gun users keep complaining about how they need buffs but honestly... if you look at the numbers? Hunting rifles have better min and maximum damage then every single two handed melee weapon in the game except greathammers but greathammers after the nerf aren't even useable anymore with a 3 minimum dmg and 29 max dmg while still having the same terrible crit stats.
Guns have higher AB by a mile, more dmg on average and are SAFER than melee weapons since they can fire at enemies that are no where near them.
So yes I'm upset, no I'm not going to rage quit or anything but I'd like to see melee get some help in the AB department at least. Guns requiring stamina to reload is 100% neglible as gun users are wearing lighter armors and don't really need their stamina for anything BUT reloading.
I just have a very sour taste in my mouth right now about the state of things and I don't like it at all. I don't see a point to be specced into melee. Shit even with the ranged penalty on my chainmail I could start using a gun and with the mods have the same AB I do now and pretty much the same damage AND not have to spend so much on consumables. Sign me up , right? Guns are all win win, melee is all lose lose right now. The only thing that melee people have is activated abilities which have to land to be useful. I'm terrified of the "balance" changes that is going to be made to the skill trees right now. If two handed weapon users get nerfed anymore I won't even want to play. Will I? Probably in hopes that it gets changed to something better.
Thank the gods for the ability to retrain talents I guess?
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Post by drunkensolamnic on Aug 1, 2015 13:02:05 GMT -5
Maybe just provide some ability to progress melee AB or remove that tree from the marskmen tree to even the AB out a little?
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Post by Psionic-Entity on Aug 1, 2015 13:04:18 GMT -5
1. Hunting rifles weren't buffed, nor was two handed damage nerfed. Balance between claymore/hunting rifles users was not touched, for instance.
2. Two attacks at 5/0 is better than one attack at 5, this is reflected in damage stats.
3. Greathammers are still better than claymores against targets with 20+ armor, not much worse for lower values.
You're trying to have an opinion on things that are fairly easy to check numerically. Probably not the best use of your time when the tools to check these things for yourself have been made available.
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Post by kingofaquilonia on Aug 1, 2015 13:23:50 GMT -5
I don't need to put numbers into a chart to know what I know PE.
Two handed weapons were nerfed alot of the base weapons were altered. Great hammers lost 3 minimum damage and 1 max dmg. halberds lost block but then spears gained block
I'm aware guns weren't buffed I'm just saying that the numbers for guns were already there. AB needs to be factored into these DPS readings which from what I looked at in that chart that reads like chinese to me I didn't see it.
The thing is PE is that guns or hunting rifles don't have one attack at 5 they have one attack at 9 from mods and standing still alone plus whatever talents they've invested. Plus ranged weapons can still get flanking AB.
No one seems to talk about the glaring AB difference in terms of balance. I was talking with someone who does 14-28 at 11 AB per shot with a hunting rifle. That is vastly superior to anything in the melee world that I've seen.
Personally I'd much rather have a two handed weapon have an 11 AB with one attack that hits for something like 12-36 to reward the increased danger levels of being in melee.
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Post by tildryn on Aug 1, 2015 13:48:25 GMT -5
I don't need to put numbers into a chart to know what I know PE. Two handed weapons were nerfed alot of the base weapons were altered. Great hammers lost 3 minimum damage and 1 max dmg. halberds lost block but then spears gained block I'm aware guns weren't buffed I'm just saying that the numbers for guns were already there. AB needs to be factored into these DPS readings which from what I looked at in that chart that reads like chinese to me I didn't see it. The thing is PE is that guns or hunting rifles don't have one attack at 5 they have one attack at 9 from mods and standing still alone plus whatever talents they've invested. Plus ranged weapons can still get flanking AB. No one seems to talk about the glaring AB difference in terms of balance. I was talking with someone who does 14-28 at 11 AB per shot with a hunting rifle. That is vastly superior to anything in the melee world that I've seen. Personally I'd much rather have a two handed weapon have an 11 AB with one attack that hits for something like 12-36 to reward the increased danger levels of being in melee. You don't need numbers in a chart to know something that is not opinion, but statistical data? Is this a parody post? |
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Post by Fuzz on Aug 1, 2015 14:35:59 GMT -5
Thank the gods for the ability to retrain talents I guess? There are no polytheistic religions in this setting, so yeah, still irks me when I see this phrase. Just saying. EDIT: Not being snide, I read the rest of the thread, I just have no knowledge of the systems, nor any say in how they get tweaked. Just pointing a random observation out. |
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Post by mireigi on Aug 1, 2015 14:42:29 GMT -5
Guns are supposed to be better damagewise than anything else. No matter how big a weapon you have, or how well you can swing it, a bullet will always carry more kinetic energy resulting in more damage being done.
Gun wielders have the disadvantage of having to remain stationary so they do not suffer AB penalties due to movement, or trigger AOO. They also need to spend time reloading their weapon or switching to another one. Melees on the other hand can move about freely, sans the AOOs, have more attacks per round, and do not need to spend time reloading or switching weapons.
If you want to compare weapons statistics, you need to look at prolonged fights against multiple enemies, rather than one-on-one scenarios.
At least be thankful you're using a weapon that can actually do damage. Daggers and staves are really low in the damage department, and don't get me started on Unarmed, which is supposed to be good at 70+ skill, but crap until then.
A way to balance it out somewhat though, is to give everyone gap-closers, in the form of a short-distance charge, or combat roll. Something that let characters move about the battlefield quickly. For melee this won't be an issue, but for a gun user it would be ill-advised to use such movements. Also give intelligent enemies this ability as well (bandits and cultists for now) and you might see gun users scramble to keep their advantage when three enemies suddenly close distance and are up in their faces.
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Post by nito on Aug 1, 2015 16:33:17 GMT -5
Guns are supposed to be better damagewise than anything else. No matter how big a weapon you have, or how well you can swing it, a bullet will always carry more kinetic energy resulting in more damage being done. Gun wielders have the disadvantage of having to remain stationary so they do not suffer AB penalties due to movement, or trigger AOO. They also need to spend time reloading their weapon or switching to another one. Melees on the other hand can move about freely, sans the AOOs, have more attacks per round, and do not need to spend time reloading or switching weapons. If you want to compare weapons statistics, you need to look at prolonged fights against multiple enemies, rather than one-on-one scenarios. At least be thankful you're using a weapon that can actually do damage. Daggers and staves are really low in the damage department, and don't get me started on Unarmed, which is supposed to be good at 70+ skill, but crap until then. A way to balance it out somewhat though, is to give everyone gap-closers, in the form of a short-distance charge, or combat roll. Something that let characters move about the battlefield quickly. For melee this won't be an issue, but for a gun user it would be ill-advised to use such movements. Also give intelligent enemies this ability as well (bandits and cultists for now) and you might see gun users scramble to keep their advantage when three enemies suddenly close distance and are up in their faces. Those disadvantages aren't going to be as big a deal as you think they are. You can completely nullify the attack penalties with weapon mods. Also, AB is god in NWN2 and melee users are lacking compared to firearms at the moment. Last I checked a meleer with the best possible talents/weapons is going to have something like a 40-50% miss chance at full AB against someone in properly talented light armor, which is just awful. Discounting one-on-one scenarios or definitively stating that one weapon type is meant to be better than all the others are both mistakes that will come back to haunt you on a server that allows non consensual PvP. |
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Post by electrohydra on Aug 1, 2015 16:48:53 GMT -5
20 ranks in two-handed fighting, level 20 claymore with a few mods, Momentum II, Power attack II while flanking. *cough cough*
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Post by eba on Aug 1, 2015 18:28:02 GMT -5
Guns are supposed to be better damagewise than anything else. No matter how big a weapon you have, or how well you can swing it, a bullet will always carry more kinetic energy resulting in more damage being done. Gun wielders have the disadvantage of having to remain stationary so they do not suffer AB penalties due to movement, or trigger AOO. They also need to spend time reloading their weapon or switching to another one. Melees on the other hand can move about freely, sans the AOOs, have more attacks per round, and do not need to spend time reloading or switching weapons. If you want to compare weapons statistics, you need to look at prolonged fights against multiple enemies, rather than one-on-one scenarios. At least be thankful you're using a weapon that can actually do damage. Daggers and staves are really low in the damage department, and don't get me started on Unarmed, which is supposed to be good at 70+ skill, but crap until then. A way to balance it out somewhat though, is to give everyone gap-closers, in the form of a short-distance charge, or combat roll. Something that let characters move about the battlefield quickly. For melee this won't be an issue, but for a gun user it would be ill-advised to use such movements. Also give intelligent enemies this ability as well (bandits and cultists for now) and you might see gun users scramble to keep their advantage when three enemies suddenly close distance and are up in their faces. Those disadvantages aren't going to be as big a deal as you think they are. You can completely nullify the attack penalties with weapon mods. Also, AB is god in NWN2 and melee users are lacking compared to firearms at the moment. Last I checked a meleer with the best possible talents/weapons is going to have something like a 40-50% miss chance at full AB against someone in properly talented light armor, which is just awful. Discounting one-on-one scenarios or definitively stating that one weapon type is meant to be better than all the others are both mistakes that will come back to haunt you on a server that allows non consensual PvP. AB isn't as god in EoA as everything isn't stacking AC to absurd levels. |
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Post by judicator on Aug 1, 2015 19:00:21 GMT -5
That depends what you're fighting against. Attack bonus is still extremely important: it's your chance to do damage. Against high-dodge or high-block targets, there's nothing you need more.
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Post by kingofaquilonia on Aug 1, 2015 21:34:16 GMT -5
20 ranks in two-handed fighting, level 20 claymore with a few mods, Momentum II, Power attack II while flanking. *cough cough* There are no mods to give ab and only one mod currently to give damage and its one damage. Momentum also gives damage not AB. you have a 9 AB with what you just described or an 8 if you took a mercurial core. AB is da King of all kings. I'm going to take some more time to try to figure out the chart PE posted to see if it has AB figured into the DPS readings. |
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Post by kingofaquilonia on Aug 1, 2015 21:35:32 GMT -5
Those disadvantages aren't going to be as big a deal as you think they are. You can completely nullify the attack penalties with weapon mods. Also, AB is god in NWN2 and melee users are lacking compared to firearms at the moment. Last I checked a meleer with the best possible talents/weapons is going to have something like a 40-50% miss chance at full AB against someone in properly talented light armor, which is just awful. Discounting one-on-one scenarios or definitively stating that one weapon type is meant to be better than all the others are both mistakes that will come back to haunt you on a server that allows non consensual PvP. AB isn't as god in EoA as everything isn't stacking AC to absurd levels. AB is still vastly important since AB values are so small. Axel is nearly entirely useless at the cultist dungeon since those guys have a 19 dodge AC at the tier where the flaming weapon guys spawn. As a final note since I forgot to mention it earlier... I would definitely wholeheartedly be all for sticking to the chart if this weren't NWN where the random number generation is .... so not random. Also Fuzz! I'm aware about the diety thing. This isn't an IC post though , thanking the gods is more reflecting my personal views. That's all broseph |
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Post by electrohydra on Aug 1, 2015 23:10:20 GMT -5
There is that magnet thing that gives +1 AB if you're hitting something with metal armor. And while your AB might be 1-2 points less, your damage is about 3 times as high. It's comparable, if not the same. Also, against most ACs two attacks at +9/+4 are going to hit more often on average then one attack at +11.
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Post by drunkensolamnic on Aug 2, 2015 0:16:36 GMT -5
Where are you getting 3x as high? I normally hit for maybe 10-13 damage if the monster rolls mediocre on its DR. The only time I really get a good number is if I crit, and even sometimes crits dont go past the teens.
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