scitus
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Posts: 5
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Post by scitus on Aug 3, 2015 19:42:08 GMT -5
I definitively like that idea, Rifles and carbines are strong, but there is no way you could use one in a situation say sitting at a table, where as a hand gun could easily, or at least more easily be used up close. and I could see Rifles getting an AoO when firing.
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Post by eba on Aug 3, 2015 19:52:40 GMT -5
It doesn't matter how high your crit is if you crit 1 time in 20 That's a LOT of shots. With a hunting rifle that is 4 clips. You will crit once every 2 fights. Yippee...
Give guns Point blank shot already!
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Post by drunkensolamnic on Aug 3, 2015 20:04:05 GMT -5
About as often as everyone else crits.
Great hammer does 3-29dmg and 20x2 crits. Its regarded as the strongest 2-handed weapon. Hunting Rifle does 10-24dmg, 20x3.
This means the average damage and minimum damage of the hunting rifle is higher. In fact, not a single 2-handed weapon has a minimum damage as good as the hunting rifle. In fact, only the greathammer has a max-damage in excess of the hunting rifle.
Your go-to-gun for marskmen, has a better damage out put than staffs, spears, halberds, and claymores... and more consistent damage than a greathammer. I don't think you have issues with the damage you're doing. I think you're just not seeing how many times melee users hit for 0 damage because they also miss so much that you're use to not seeing numbers float upwards over them.
The stamina-cost-free ability tree for marksmen gives you increased crit damage, and increased per-hit damage. So you could eventually have +8dmg per shot, and an extra 100%damage on a crit.
The stamina free ability tree for 2-handed weapons provides +5dmg end game; that's it. Everything else requires stamina.
In a straight comparison.. I really dont see how people can keep arguing guns need buffed? They are already gaurenteed to hit the hardest, I think all the weapons are in a good place in relation to each other. The only changes I'd like to see is what I suggested for bastard swords and other interchangable 1-hand/2-hand weapons go in.
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Post by eba on Aug 3, 2015 20:07:54 GMT -5
Crits don't make a difference, they don't happen enough to matter.
Guns need point blank shot.
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nito
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Posts: 6
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Post by nito on Aug 3, 2015 20:26:50 GMT -5
Guns already get access to higher damage via talents than any other weapon in the game. Is there any non-anecdotal evidence that they're at a disadvantage in the damage department? Comparing handguns to two-handed weapons doesn't count, that's like comparing a dagger to a hunting rifle.
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Post by YourMoveHolyMan on Aug 3, 2015 22:03:17 GMT -5
Some guns do get point blank shot with mods don't they?
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Post by tildryn on Aug 4, 2015 0:52:23 GMT -5
So much misinformation in this thread. After modelling the damage of guns with full i100 gear, guns have lower Damage Per Round than both Two-Handed (2H) and Dual-Wielding (DW) modes, against all armour types. Oft-times, very significantly less. Feel free to use this weapon damage calculator that Psionic-Entity made to verify these results. It's fruitless to make authoritative declarations on the basis of tummyfeels. docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1WhmVKITfbV2enTaD67e6EjUHxNgeIyxA0r9mplvbwVk/edit#gid=0The full weapon and armour stats can be found using TLKEdit, in the Engines 2da, under baseitems.2da, items_guns, etc. Bear in mind that guns share the same base item for several types. At i100, with full talents and relevant abilities: Leather has 21 Armour and 26 AC. Scale has 34 Armour and 20 AC. Plate has 51 Armour and 13 AC. Carbine has a minimum damage of 24, max damage 38, crit range 20, crit multiplier x4. 2 Attacks/Round. Greathammer has a minimum damage of 25, max damage 51, crit range 20, crit multiplier x2. 3 Attacks/Round. Battleaxe has a minimum damage of 20 max damage 37, crit range 20, crit multiplier x3. 3 Attacks/Round. Handaxe has a minimum damage of 17, max damage 30, crit range 20, crit multiplier x3. 3 Attacks/Round. All these weapons have an Attack of 15. Decreasing on each attack, of course.
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Post by Sobriquet on Aug 4, 2015 1:36:32 GMT -5
Sure. At level 100, with full talents and relevant abilities, there may very well be balance issues. The reality is that no player is at level 100 with full talents and relevant abilities, so obviously discussions center around what we perceive in combat playing our characters. I'm hardly opposed to modeling the damage output, but it seems a bit ridiculous to solely focus on the end-game. Balance should ideally be all the way through. You've also noted said modeling doesn't account for kiting, stealth, and utility items. Light armor gives benefits with regards to all of those in the form of lower weight, abilities/passive feats for escaping, and lower stealth penalties. All those serve to potentially act as game changers. I'm not opposed to gunners being the highest source of DPS at all, but I'm also of the mind that they should rightfully have a hard time going toe to toe 1v1 against a melee oriented character. With regards to current PvE, I've perceived guns to do the highest amount of damage output, at least when dealing with people around the 20-30 skill level range. Maybe I'm completely off base, and ideally it'd be nice to have a way to model that too, but I'm not sure looking at how things work at level 100 really does that.
That all being said, if guns are extremely horrible end game, they obviously need a buff on their end-game capability -- not necessarily on how they work right now, though.
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Post by tildryn on Aug 4, 2015 3:03:38 GMT -5
Sure. At level 100, with full talents and relevant abilities, there may very well be balance issues. The reality is that no player is at level 100 with full talents and relevant abilities, so obviously discussions center around what we perceive in combat playing our characters. I'm hardly opposed to modeling the damage output, but it seems a bit ridiculous to solely focus on the end-game. Balance should ideally be all the way through. You've also noted said modeling doesn't account for kiting, stealth, and utility items. Light armor gives benefits with regards to all of those in the form of lower weight, abilities/passive feats for escaping, and lower stealth penalties. All those serve to potentially act as game changers. I'm not opposed to gunners being the highest source of DPS at all, but I'm also of the mind that they should rightfully have a hard time going toe to toe 1v1 against a melee oriented character. With regards to current PvE, I've perceived guns to do the highest amount of damage output, at least when dealing with people around the 20-30 skill level range. Maybe I'm completely off base, and ideally it'd be nice to have a way to model that too, but I'm not sure looking at how things work at level 100 really does that. That all being said, if guns are extremely horrible end game, they obviously need a buff on their end-game capability -- not necessarily on how they work right now, though. Go ahead and run the numbers, and see. Waffle and speculation isn't necessary, you have the tools to determine the results.
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Post by Sobriquet on Aug 4, 2015 10:22:57 GMT -5
With regards to PvP balance, it'd be easier/more effective to have a DM level two players to the appropriate level and have them duke it out OOCly. It's how I remember a fair bit of balance testing being done on Legacy, anyways. You've stated that you can't capture externalities like kiting or using smoke grenades for HIPS, which are pretty much necessary to take into consideration. But sure, for calculating pure DPS around the 20-30 range, I'll try to figure my way around the spreadsheet in a while. I have a suspicion that the extra attacks melee users get from rank 50 that gunners don't play a decent role in creating the imbalance near end-game.
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Post by kingofaquilonia on Aug 4, 2015 15:29:24 GMT -5
Like I've said before charts are all well and good but the RNG of NWN is terrible. With the stats of the hunting rifle it could definitely do more. I didn't want to see guns lose their AB buffs in their talent tree I just wanted to see Melee get some AB buffs to help match up.
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Post by eba on Aug 4, 2015 15:40:51 GMT -5
I just want point blank shot
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Post by Fuzz on Aug 4, 2015 16:26:17 GMT -5
I just want point blank shot PBS is already available on some guns with the right attachment. I personally don't think it should exist on long guns at all, ever. That's the trade off, you can't have the best of every world.
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Post by eba on Aug 4, 2015 17:09:24 GMT -5
I just want point blank shot PBS is already available on some guns with the right attachment. I personally don't think it should exist on long guns at all, ever. That's the trade off, you can't have the best of every world. They may as well not exist then. hand guns are bad. The SMG is bad.
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Post by eba on Aug 4, 2015 17:27:06 GMT -5
It doesn't matter how high your crit is if you crit 1 time in 20 That's a LOT of shots. With a hunting rifle that is 4 clips. You will crit once every 2 fights. Yippee... Give guns Point blank shot already! I forgot, you have to confirm. Guns'll crit like once every 30 shots.
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