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Post by kingofaquilonia on Aug 2, 2015 1:37:56 GMT -5
You are only getting +9/+4 if you are flanking with a high level weapon. That magnet is only +1 AB vs targets in metal armor, not to mention I don't know anyone who can actually make it. Gun users have 11 AB WITHOUT flanking. Not to mention melee characters have no where NEAR 3 times the damage of a gun user. Hunting Rifles as I've pointed out , outclass most melee weapons in damage.
One final nitpick btw you mentioned a level 20 claymore with 20 two handed and Momentum II you can't take momentum II until skill level 40 btw.
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nito
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Post by nito on Aug 2, 2015 1:43:31 GMT -5
I'm a little boggled that people are acting like the AB thing is no big deal. I usually avoid number crunching, so somebody please correct me if I'm wrong:
16 dodge (base light armor) + 5 (light armor defense line, almost everyone wearing light armor is going to take these abilities eventually) + ~4 (dodge bonus for level 100 light armor, leather specifically in this example) = ~25 dodge. This isn't counting however much you can get from the armor mods that give AC.
Weapons right now seem to universally max out at +10, so somebody using a level 100 two hander is going to have, at maximum, +15/+10/+5 AB. This is a 55%/25%/5% hit rate on anyone wearing a max level light armor. I'm not quite certain how the Dual Wield mechanics work here, but I'm assuming they'll also max out at +15 unless you use a medium offhand, in which case you'll suffer a -2 penalty.
A Revolver, meanwhile, could be +22/+12/+7 just using the basic AB attachments that are already available on level ~25 equipment; or an 85%/60%/35% hit chance. This is massive. Even without any attachments at all their hit rate would be 75%/50%/25%. So not only are most gun wielders going to be wearing light armor that makes them absurdly difficult for meleers to even hit, gun wielders are also the only characters who can reliably hit other gun wielders in good equipment. Hell, with a Targeting Lamp or Iron Sights to remove the melee AB penalty, there isn't any reason you couldn't just take your chances face-tanking a meleer while repeatedly shooting them. Even if you opt to focus on pure offense, you could use ten ability points (not an unreasonable number I think, given that I've managed to get 6 while completely solo) to get a flat +11 damage on every shot via Gunslinger 5 and From the Hip 5; you'd just have to move a little every other round to trigger FtH. A Reflex Scope would completely cancel out the AB penalty from moving, and you'd still have a 2 AB advantage over meleers... or 1 AB if you wanted to use a Compensator and bump your crit damage up to 400%.
I won't deny that firearms aren't very fun to use at low skill levels, and I'm not opposed to them being rebalanced to make them more enjoyable throughout... but only if care is taken to make certain they won't be completely ridiculous at high level. Right now they are extremely strong at end game, at least when theorycrafting. Hopefully we get a test area so we can compare the real world performance before any overly drastic changes are made. And I really, really think Two-Handed and Dual Wield need attack bonus lines they can invest in if light armor is going to stay in its current state.
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Post by Sobriquet on Aug 2, 2015 2:10:25 GMT -5
Light armor is designed with the intention of being vulnerable enough, given its incredibly low damage reduction. Gun users will already tear up people in light armor due to their high AB and giving melee weapons more AB would potentially serve to render light armor useless. The issue is gun balance vs. melee balance -- if guns have excessive AB, the answer should be to nerf the AB, not to throw melee weapons more AB. If you want to talk about light armor being OP, then compare a light armor dual wielder / two hander vs. a heavy armor dual wielder / two hander, not a light armor gunner vs. a melee heavy armor. Giving everything more AB would just pretty much make light armor even less common in the front lines, and stealth'll become a niche skill exclusive to gunners who still have a reason to stick with the armor. The design philosophy behind light armor is already that it shouldn't be able to last toe to toe with a heavy armor / medium armor user as people will hit pretty hard, especially end game, and the AC/AB gap won't ever be excessively wide. 55% on the first hit is what a lot of abilities like Powerful Strike will use, which at end game gets what, 200-250% increase in damage? It'll decimate a light armor wearer when it hits.
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nito
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Post by nito on Aug 2, 2015 3:47:25 GMT -5
How big of a difference are we talking in armor value, though, and what are the minimum armor rolls for medium and heavy? Is it really large enough that it's reasonable to expect a meleer to whiff almost all of his total attacks against a light armor wearer? I'm not being facetious, I'm asking a genuine question. I was under the impression that even a heavy with 40+ armor could roll low and take close to full damage from attacks. If that's the case, I'd think having a near guarantee the other person is going to miss most of his attacks (because said person only has a prayer of landing his first attack per round unless they get lucky 20s on the other two) is the patently superior option. Aren't the odds of flubbing your armor rolls and dying significantly higher than scoring a string of lucky hits at 55%/25%/5% and killing the other guy? I used the gunslinger v. armored melee opponent example because in an ideal world, the gunslinger's monstrously high AB would be countered by the armor, and his odds of punching through that armor would be about the same as the melee user's odds of hitting him... but one of the biggest complaints about guns is that they suck against armor, so I have to wonder how people envision the EoA food chain. Some think guns should be flat out better than everything else, but that's a terrible, terrible idea when all their downsides can be completely nullified (no AoOs when firing, AoOs from reload countered by light armor's higher dodge, melee AB penalty removed by PBS attachment). Unless, of course, you eventually want everyone running around with guns and light armor.
To decimate a light armor wearer with Power Attack you'd either have to roll high on damage, crit, or preferably both. That's a tall order when your hit chance is already crap to begin with. Even then, you're almost certainly not going to rack up 100+ damage and kill him with one PA. I get what you're saying, but it still feels like fortune will statistically favor the guy who's running around with high BAB and high dodge. It seems like the idea was that light armor = glass cannon due to having higher total stamina available, but stamina seems pretty unimportant due to how fast fights end and I can't really view them as glass cannons when they're an order of magnitude harder to hit than anyone else. It becomes insanity mode when you factor in that they also get an ability line granting Concealment.
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Post by Psionic-Entity on Aug 2, 2015 10:05:50 GMT -5
Since it will for sure come up, the +AB line of marksmanship abilities was reworked to give critical damage. There's a small story behind this. At launch ranged weapons started at +3 AB and had abilities that increased AB. This was bad at low levels so ranged AB was taken up to +5 and ability changes were put on the backburner because most players were sub level 10 and running the intro. The ability changes have been made as of this morning.
If you don't like stuff that got changed you can swap them out, I'll even provide refunds for those abilities in particular.
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Post by Rekov on Aug 2, 2015 10:23:08 GMT -5
I can see how having one class of weapons with a significantly higher AB than everything else would make it difficult to create balanced encounters. Still, it would seem that these changes rather significantly reduce the DPS for ranged weapons. The 5% crit rate on most ranged weapons is small enough that it seems odd to be 'relying' on crits for damage.
I feel as though it should also be pointed out that ranged characters have to deal with Ranged Penalties to AB from armor for some armor types, which melee characters never need consider. Ranged characters pay a cost, either in AB, abilities, or armor that simply doesn't exist on the other side of weaponry.
EDIT: Additional penalties to AB for ranged weapons are a -2 penalty after having moved, and a significant penalty while in melee.
Guns also have an inherent stamina cost in reloading, an inherent carrying capacity cost in the 50 lbs of bullets they have to carry into a dungeon run, and must routinely sacrifice a round to reload as well.
I guess what I'm saying is that it feels like guns require giving up a lot, and currently don't get much for it. I'll be the first to acknowledge that feeling means jack squat when it comes to balancing the numbers though.
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Post by Sobriquet on Aug 2, 2015 11:49:30 GMT -5
How big of a difference are we talking in armor value, though, and what are the minimum armor rolls for medium and heavy? Is it really large enough that it's reasonable to expect a meleer to whiff almost all of his total attacks against a light armor wearer? I'm not being facetious, I'm asking a genuine question. I was under the impression that even a heavy with 40+ armor could roll low and take close to full damage from attacks. If that's the case, I'd think having a near guarantee the other person is going to miss most of his attacks (because said person only has a prayer of landing his first attack per round unless they get lucky 20s on the other two) is the patently superior option. Aren't the odds of flubbing your armor rolls and dying significantly higher than scoring a string of lucky hits at 50%/5%/5% and killing the other guy? I used the gunslinger v. armored melee opponent example because in an ideal world, the gunslinger's monstrously high AB would be countered by the armor, and his odds of punching through that armor would be about the same as the melee user's odds of hitting him... but one of the biggest complaints about guns is that they suck against armor, so I have to wonder how people envision the EoA food chain. Some think guns should be flat out better than everything else, but that's a terrible, terrible idea when all their downsides can be completely nullified (no AoOs when firing, AoOs from reload countered by light armor's higher dodge, melee AB penalty removed by PBS attachment). Unless, of course, you eventually want everyone running around with guns and light armor. To decimate a light armor wearer with Power Attack you'd either have to roll high on damage, crit, or preferably both. That's a tall order when your hit chance is already crap to begin with. Even then, you're almost certainly not going to rack up 100+ damage and kill him with one PA. I get what you're saying, but it still feels like fortune will statistically favor the guy who's running around with high BAB and high dodge. It seems like the idea was that light armor = glass cannon due to having higher total stamina available, but stamina seems pretty unimportant due to how fast fights end and I can't really view them as glass cannons when they're an order of magnitude harder to hit than anyone else. It becomes insanity mode when you factor in that they also get an ability line granting Concealment. Not sure myself. It'd be nice to test it out with end game characters and see who actually wins. I get a feeling light armor may have a chance of trumping heavy, but medium may very well be the best choice given a fair amount of AC + DR and some nice feats, but as said elsewhere, feeling means jack squat. Keep in mind that dual wielders, though, get two attacks at full AB, meaning 50%/50/5%/5%/5%/5%, if those numbers are right. Light armor might be more difficult for a two hander to deal with (as it maybe should be, IMO, as its comparative advantage is meant to be with heavy armor) but a dual wielder might have a lot easier time getting through. I'm not opposed to a light armor nerf if it actually needs one, but I'd hate to see us rush on the 'give everything AB' boat without really checking out the numbers and end up with light armor being completely useless for everyone except gunners. Stealth at the moment isn't really worth it and with regards to PvE plate armor people seem to do fine sneaking around, and the stamina benefit of light armor is near pointless for me, as dual wield doesn't seem to have too many abilities that drain stamina. If anything, light armor feats are what take their fair share on my part. Edit: Also, just realized your numbers are a bit off. The AB is +15/+10/+5, not +15/+5/+0. That's a 50%/25%/5% chance, I think, and for a dual wielder 50%/50%/25%/25%/5%/5%. A dual wielding heavy armor guy would probably wreck face on a light armor user if he/she tried to go toe to toe, even if said light armor char had a two hander to smash through DR, though that's again just a feeling. I'd probably hit dash and run the hell out of there, which seems to be one thing that light armor is certainly nice at -- running away.
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nito
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Post by nito on Aug 2, 2015 16:10:11 GMT -5
Whoops, edited my posts. Not sure how I overlooked that so many times... I was even fiddling around with the DW AB for a while before I gave up because I wasn't sure how it works. So DW gets two attacks at full AB, but one of those is an offhand attack, no? I'm curious to see how that would play out, since DW requires a significant feat investment to get the most bang out of your offhand. From what I've experienced, even light armor doesn't struggle overly much to mitigate a large portion of damage from one handed weapons. It also makes committing to a full round action a bigger tradeoff, since you'd be sacrificing another 50% hit chance to do so. I think Twin Strikes gets a +1 or +2 accuracy bonus later down the line, but not until 60+ skill.
There are attachments that remove both of those penalties and they seem far better than any other mods available for their particular slots, so I think it's safe to say most gun users won't have the movement or melee AB penalties at high level. Maybe these mods should be available at a lower level than they currently are? Seems like they could go a long way toward making gunners easier to solo with, which is another big complaint.
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scitus
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Post by scitus on Aug 3, 2015 11:32:34 GMT -5
I frequently get critical hits of 5 or 6 damage, because of the monsterous DR of the undead or cultists or even the beetles, the hunting rifle achieves decent damage at 1 hit a turn, but no where close to what melee users can do, and trying to play just handguns is near impossible. The AB doesn't matter if you can't do any damage, and armor is insanely powerful, and the gun mods to increase ab ruin what little damage it has anyway with a -2 damage. If there was a way to say have armor piercing rounds that could ignore a percent of DR maybe, but until then anyone who wants to play handguns, or light weapons forward, pretty much is restricted to only being helpful on boss fights, but again not as much as anyone else.
That said, using a halberd more often since my gun is near useless, I do see the ab concerns for melee I hit about...1/6th of the time, so I get that. As another note Sneaking in heavy armor...I think there should be more serious penalties to moving in heavy armor, it doesn't make a whole lot of sense that a giant in plate and chain could sneak past someone unless they were incredibly skilled. as it is there is basically no benefit to wearing lighter armor, except for the ranged penalty which again why are you using guns when you could be wearing heavy armor?
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Post by drunkensolamnic on Aug 3, 2015 11:46:06 GMT -5
The penalties for wearing full plate are already at a combined total of like -15 to the check if you're moving.
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Post by Sobriquet on Aug 3, 2015 12:09:59 GMT -5
Last night guns were critting against spiders for 100+. I'm slightly skeptical of the claim that they're not effective weapons, especially given that melee weapons aren't exactly smashing through armor either. They're also able to stay back and safely do damage while melee users kite or block. That being said, I'd like to echo someone else's concern that I read elsewhere about balancing around PvE and not PvP. The latter should probably be first and foremost important, and it hasn't really been tested too well from what I can tell.
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Post by Rekov on Aug 3, 2015 12:24:29 GMT -5
Last night guns were critting against spiders for 100+. I'm slightly skeptical of the claim that they're not effective weapons, especially given that melee weapons aren't exactly smashing through armor either. They're also able to stay back and safely do damage while melee users kite or block. That being said, I'd like to echo someone else's concern that I read elsewhere about balancing around PvE and not PvP. The latter should probably be first and foremost important, and it hasn't really been tested too well from what I can tell. As I kept trying to say, but couldn't since those uppity spiders kept getting in my way, is that those crits are flashy, but that's about it. Most guns have 5% crit chance (the gunsword has 10%). 100%(.95) + 300%(.05) = 110% If we assume that the gun always hit, it does roughly 110% of base damage. This is a gross simplification because obviously the gun wont always hit, but bear with me for a second here. With precise shooting, we have 100%(.95) + 320%(.05) = 111% instead. With the whole line, we get 100%(.95) + 400%(.05) = 115% You can see why I'm not terribly thrilled about these abilities. The latter three are admittedly better since they also have a flat +1 damage across all shots, -which is good-, but doesn't feel particularly unique because the gunslinger line already does that. All I'm really saying is that those 100+ damage crits really stand out, while the normal shots hitting a lot less frequently slips under the radar. What would be really interesting to me is if precise shooting increased the crit range instead of the crit chance. That would at least have a somewhat more noticeable effect. 100%(.95) + 300%(.05) = 110% 100%(.90) + 300%(.10) = 120%
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Post by Sobriquet on Aug 3, 2015 12:35:02 GMT -5
I'm still under the impression that guns are the main source of DPS in a lot of PvE encounters. The crits aren't just flashy -- they're something like 2x to 4x the damage of what melee weapons were critting on and dealt a huge source of damage. Most of our weapons are also 5% - 10%, unless we're rocking something like a scimitar. My flail is a 4x with 5% chance that hit for 60-80, while my shortsword a 3x with 10% chance that hit for maybe 20-30 on crits. With regards to hits not landing, melee users aren't exactly any better on AB. Worse, actually, and especially so when hit with the webs. I'm skeptical of the claim guns need to do more damage or hit more frequently. I'd rather just see other guns get more usage over hunting rifles, as the scene still seems to be somewhat dominated by them. And again, I'd really like to see how this plays out in PvP rather than just PvE, preferably in group battles but also 1v1. I'm under the belief that gunners should certainly be getting wrecked 1v1 against melee, but be a pretty useful asset when covered and able to take shots.
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Post by Kitsunenotsume on Aug 3, 2015 12:37:08 GMT -5
Last night guns were critting against spiders for 100+. I'm slightly skeptical of the claim that they're not effective weapons, especially given that melee weapons aren't exactly smashing through armor either. They're also able to stay back and safely do damage while melee users kite or block. That being said, I'd like to echo someone else's concern that I read elsewhere about balancing around PvE and not PvP. The latter should probably be first and foremost important, and it hasn't really been tested too well from what I can tell. As I kept trying to say, but couldn't since those uppity spiders kept getting in my way, is that those crits are flashy, but that's about it. Most guns have 5% crit chance (the gunsword has 10%). 100%(.95) + 300%(.05) = 110% If we assume that the gun always hit, it does roughly 110% of base damage. This is a gross simplification because obviously the gun wont always hit, but bear with me for a second here. With precise shooting, we have 100%(.95) + 320%(.05) = 111% instead. With the whole line, we get 100%(.95) + 400%(.05) = 115% You can see why I'm not terribly thrilled about these abilities. The latter three are admittedly better since they also have a flat +1 damage across all shots, -which is good-, but doesn't feel particularly unique because the gunslinger line already does that. All I'm really saying is that those 100+ damage crits really stand out, while the normal shots hitting a lot less frequently slips under the radar. What would be really interesting to me is if precise shooting increased the crit range instead of the crit chance. That would at least have a somewhat more noticeable effect. 100%(.95) + 300%(.05) = 110% 100%(.90) + 300%(.10) = 120% The difference comes in how it reacts with DR. 100 damage over 10 attacks leaves a target with average 10 armor only slightly damaged. 100 damage in a single attack against a target with 10 average DR is close to or past dead. Sure, you might miss a fair bit, but when it impacts it hurts, without, as you have conveniently pointed out, actually altering the respective average damage output. High-crit damage results in a situational armor-piercing weapon.
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nito
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Post by nito on Aug 3, 2015 18:49:22 GMT -5
There's a perception that guns are universally worse against armor than other weapons and I don't think it's accurate. When Psionic-Entity said 2H hammers were better against DR I'm pretty sure he meant the X/Bludgeoning damage immunity that a lot of creatures get, not armor DR. Correct me if I'm wrong, but a 5-20 firearm should have the same average damage against armor as a 5-20 melee weapon. Every gun hitting as hard as the hardest hitting melee weapons available would make guns silly overpowered.
I think the idea is that guns are going to be diversified more than they currently are. PE mentioned adding point blank shot to handguns, which will help make them the go-to solo option for gunslingers, with carbines and rifles being the heavy hitters. Hunting rifles already hit as hard or harder than two handed weapons, and carbines aren't too far behind with 6-20 damage. I wouldn't mind seeing them get higher potential damage, but only if there are drawbacks associated with it. They shouldn't have the option of getting Point Blank Shot attachments. I can buy that pistols are point n' shoot at any distance, but shooting someone in melee range with a rifle isn't easy if he's trying to avoid it. Depending on how much they were buffed, I might even say they should AoOs when firing.
As is now, if a two-hander is doing significantly higher damage than a carbine/rifle user it's because he's burning stamina on activated abilities or the carbine/rifle user is just getting unlucky rolls.
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