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Post by nippon on Aug 10, 2015 21:42:29 GMT -5
Any way we could pull the clock back to twelve hours per loot period on this? As it is a full run of cultists takes about an hour, with spiders being similar. Cultists pay out 1000-1500$ on average for the time investment, with spiders being around 300-800$ (if you're really lucky). We're at the point where a single weapon from a crafter can exceed 2500$, with a full set of armor running 2600-3800$. So it makes it pretty difficult to advance when you have to save for days and consistantly clear these places to get ahead. I personally expend about 300$ a run on potions to drag people through these dungeons, and it really sucks to get there and blast through it only to find you're wasting your time. When you couple that with getting 15$ pity payouts on bosses (Or none at all), you're in for some serious blueballs.
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Post by nippon on Aug 11, 2015 0:10:34 GMT -5
Was under the impression that it was once a day that placables refreshed. Actually is per-reset. Still though, would be nice to have timers =)
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Post by drunkensolamnic on Aug 11, 2015 1:56:40 GMT -5
I the mean time, if we could go back to daily resets....
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Post by Fuzz on Aug 11, 2015 12:04:03 GMT -5
On other servers do you normally swap your gear every few days? I'm a bit confused on where the problem is... it taking up to a week to fully replace all your equipment doesn't seem like a bad spot to be.
Yes, gear has a shelf life on this server because it's tired to skill progression. Even so, people are making great progress and overall are pretty well equipped across the board. We've been up for a month and a half and while some are borderline destitute, most are staying comfortable and no one is particularly wealthy, so that inevitable wealth/gear gap that happens on every server is a ways off.
Your own math seems to imply that you want to be able to earn enough on a daily (!) basis to replace large segments of your equipment every day. Are skills really leveling up so quickly that people need replacement stuff on a daily basis? Because then that's a completely different problem.
Or maybe I'm misunderstanding what you're trying to say.
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Post by Psionic-Entity on Aug 11, 2015 12:33:40 GMT -5
I'm generally happy with dungeon payouts but I do want to move away from a reset system as soon as possible. Sunday to Monday was a 36 hour up time which was not kind to players looking to run dungeons. Can't promise we won't see those again but I will make the switch to something time based.
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Post by nippon on Aug 11, 2015 14:41:57 GMT -5
Even if timers were implemented and tuned to one or two times a day it'd still take the better part of a week to replace gear. If we run the minimum values of those numbers and account for the fact that most players would only run these places for a profit 1x a day, you'd come to 5 days of consistant playing to replace a full deck of gear. Then there's the possibility of wiping an entire group with a single mistake, therefor losing all the progress that might have been had on that day. We did a T2 poop-snake boss last night and it wiped the floor with a group of the highest level players around. Using double blasts of it's water to one shot our PC's.
What I 'want' is to be able to log in once a day, crash out a dungeon for a bit of profit on that day, and move on to RP with the rest of the server. As PE pointed out there was a good day and a half of up-time, which meant players were running these places and seeing no payout other than exp gained.
I've personally advanced my skills at a breakneck pace, reaching about 1/3rd of their max values across the board for the combat skills. There is no crafter available that can make armor anywhere close to my heavy armor level. This means that I have to rely on my own armoring, which advances at such a snail's pace that I'll probably never catch up with my defensive skills. The thing about crafting is it's a money sarlac pit that is never content, and I could run these dungeons for weeks (I have) and barely advance it . My armoring = 26, Heavy armor = 36 There's a good hundred thousand $ between those two variables, or more, and I'm curious as to where it's supposed to come from if not dungeon splunkers.
I certainly hope my skills being where they are is not a problem, as it's the result of no-lifing your server since it's launch and playing almost every day.
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Post by kingofaquilonia on Aug 11, 2015 15:00:15 GMT -5
I think what's being said is... if you want to upgrade gear even once a week you basically save every penny to do it and that's only possible if you are running the spiders and cultists once per day. Which for me? Is likely to happen! but other people don't do dungeons as much as me
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Post by Kitsunenotsume on Aug 11, 2015 15:43:09 GMT -5
The thing about crafting is it's a money sarlac pit that is never content, and I could run these dungeons for weeks (I have) and barely advance it . My armoring = 26, Heavy armor = 36 There's a good hundred thousand $ between those two variables, or more, and I'm curious as to where it's supposed to come from if not dungeon splunkers. I certainly hope my skills being where they are is not a problem, as it's the result of no-lifing your server since it's launch and playing almost every day. I think what's being said is... if you want to upgrade gear even once a week you basically save every penny to do it and that's only possible if you are running the spiders and cultists once per day. Which for me? Is likely to happen! but other people don't do dungeons as much as me I would agree that it is accentuated for those of us who cannot invest as much time into the server. It is somewhat disappointing to log in after the regulars have run the dungeons, and discover that none of them are interested in spelunking due to the inevitable financial losses of consumables (grenades, ammo, potions) compounded with the risk involved. Also, while I don't particularly care about upgrading my armor on a regular basis (It's good enough for now), the only sustainable skill-ups are exploration-related, and gain the most from running dungeons as antisocial ninjas. Even with the decon system, ranking trade-skills still requires massive amounts of items, either to deconstruct or to craft, and I've only heard of a crossbow dropping in a dungeon once, though I may well not be online enough to hear of other occurances. |
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Post by Fuzz on Aug 11, 2015 15:44:32 GMT -5
I certainly hope my skills being where they are is not a problem, as it's the result of no-lifing your server since it's launch and playing almost every day. Saying up front that I'm not trying to be a dick. Just so you know. Take this objectively. You are an outlier. The ex-game designer in me reads your post and categorizes you as such. Unfortunate for you, but fortunate for everyone else. The thing is you can never design a system around outliers and that 1% of players that will beat your Dark Souls game in 24 hours or blast through your release MMO in a week and start complaining about the lack of endgame raid content. You build around the median and, if any outlier gets a boost, it's the opposite end - the people that are called "filthy casuals" by the hardcore MMO crowd, because you want them to keep coming back and feeling like they made some sort of progress with their limited gaming time. That's straight design theory. That's probably where we're also failing, but that's not the topic here. You could make the argument that higher payout would help bolster the experience for that lower time group, but in a small playerbase setting where there is a slightly competitive gameplay element, that's a mistake because, as you are proposing, it would also benefit the high time players and widen the wealth gap. Is there a solution? Possibly. We'd love to have everyone enjoy the gameplay experience. The fact of the matter is, however, that the driving force that wedges the playerbase and kills the community on a PW are two things: 1- Lack of DM story content. 2- Splitting of the playerbase into haves and have nots. This is an issue of #2. We've tried really hard to mitigate that on this server. There are no DM rewards that can't theoretically eventually be crafted. There are no properties or items that can only be found add boss loot or luck of the draw drops - again, everything can be crafted. So there is a method to our madness, and this isn't a dismissal of your idea, it's an explanation of the thought processes and reasoning behind why we're being really conservative with our approach to the economy. |
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Post by kingofaquilonia on Aug 11, 2015 19:04:52 GMT -5
Calling Bruce an elitist basically just because he's played every day is kinda shitty no? I'd actually save the VAST majority of this server plays almost every day. I log in nearly every day myself and I almost always see Pete, Ziska, Bruce, Emmanuel, Roderic, Gunther, Vivianne/her new character, Sashana and Derian, Claire, Zesiro, Molly... The list goes on and on these are literally just off the top of my head. The people who are on regularly are your core player base who have the most interest in your server... why not make the server more enjoyable for them? I can't imagine doing anything that would make it more enjoyable for them would make it any less enjoyable for the people who aren't on as often.
It's not about elitists and "casuals", come on now. This ain't League or MMO PvP. NWN requires little skill to play the actual game, its just about planning your character and then on a server like this the RP as well... The only kinds of things you can do to punish the people that don't get to play as often is making rewards based on time logged in. The bonus RP XP script could SORT of be viewed as a punishment to people who get to play less often because if you are logged in more you could accrue more of that.
I'm the type of player that isn't going to sit around town and just talk about the weather... it's likely that if there is nothing interesting going on in town like a DM event my character would want to be a part of or arranging some kind of business deal for his smithing... I'll be out doing dungeons because I want to progress my character and get stronger. The slow rate of progression currently on the server only makes me want to do this more!
If the idea is to cut down on grinding, perhaps speed up the rate at which you can gain skill XP?
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Post by BlackmoreKnight on Aug 11, 2015 19:10:06 GMT -5
Something I should also say to iterate on what Fuzz said is that you're very much pushing past the intended 'tier' right now of loot/skill/content. This is no different from any other PW at launch. A standard DnD PW that has areas in levels 1-15 that I nolife for a month and hit 16 on before any more content is released is going to have the exact same issues. It's less apparent in Engines because of how granular advancement is, but it's the same thing. You're bashing your head against a skill ceiling in current content now because you're 'above' the current content.
I remember the staff repeatedly saying that crafting was meant to be catchup, not the primary way of gearing. Dungeon and boss loot was meant to be that. However, content simply hasn't kept up with the frequency at which players do dungeons. Which isn't surprising. In a PW you can do three things. Event, social RP, or grind. Most players tend to waffle between the latter two with brief bursts of the first depending on their character, playtimes, and DM activity. Pretty much every PW that doesn't launch feature-complete (None have in recent years because that just takes too damn long) has the same issue. Players burn out on the content.
So what can I honestly recommend? Take it easier, wait for new content to come, you don't particularly need higher skill ranks for anything at the moment if you're already in the 30's. (PvP is jank enough in this ruleset that I disregard it as a matter of competition and balance) This is kind of the equivalent of what Fuzz said, a hardcore MMO player burning the content in two weeks then wondering when the next content patch is when in fact that's all the content for three months. (I've been there, I know)
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Post by judicator on Aug 11, 2015 19:56:57 GMT -5
You took what was written and fabricated an assertion that wasn't made. He said Nippon is an outlier, which is true. The average player doesn't have his skill progression or gear or dungeon-delving connections. That doesn't make him a bad dude, but it does provide relevant context for suggestions being made by a player of his standing versus someone like Derian, whom you mentioned, who is nowhere near Bruce on the scale.
This is about it. A few players are on the bleeding edge of the content. When the server updates and adds another inch, those players are at the new finish line pretty immediately. The majority of us aren't, and that's the group that Fuzz is saying their eyes are on when they're assessing and revising the systems that make up the economy and advancement.
All that said, I agree that whatever systems are in place shouldn't work against people with tons of time to play. A twelve-hour timer lets people hit the same dungeon twice in a day, but that's a band-aid for a short-term problem; as more dungeons get added, you won't feel the need to run the same place twice.
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Post by kingofaquilonia on Aug 11, 2015 20:11:08 GMT -5
I don't believe I fabricated anything as that's how a few of us felt about Fuzz's post. The point you missed however is that being just because some folks run dungeons more than others... They have to hit a net and wait for the other players to catch up and be forced to play their play style? That's how I see it. I am by no means hurrying PE, he is one dude doing pretty much all of this work. The content comes out when it comes out and thats all there is to it. It's amazing he manages to do what he does already. I don't enjoy this seemingly hostile outlook on the people who regularly dungeon run though.
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Post by judicator on Aug 11, 2015 20:20:54 GMT -5
Feeling something doesn't make it true, even when feeling in quantity. Fuzz didn't call anyone "elitist," didn't even come close.
That point wasn't missed because it wasn't made. He literally said,
Some bolded text for helpful emphasis. To break it down, that means they're balancing systems for the majority player. However, "[T]his isn't a dismissal of your idea." I don't know how you extracted the idea that they're trying to make anyone pump the breaks to let others catch up because it wasn't written anywhere.
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Post by Fuzz on Aug 11, 2015 20:29:44 GMT -5
Calling Bruce an elitist basically just because he's played every day is kinda shitty no? I'd actually save the VAST majority of this server plays almost every day. I log in nearly every day myself and I almost always see Pete, Ziska, Bruce, Emmanuel, Roderic, Gunther, Vivianne/her new character, Sashana and Derian, Claire, Zesiro, Molly... The list goes on and on these are literally just off the top of my head. The people who are on regularly are your core player base who have the most interest in your server... why not make the server more enjoyable for them? I can't imagine doing anything that would make it more enjoyable for them would make it any less enjoyable for the people who aren't on as often. It's not about elitists and "casuals", come on now. This ain't League or MMO PvP. NWN requires little skill to play the actual game, its just about planning your character and then on a server like this the RP as well... The only kinds of things you can do to punish the people that don't get to play as often is making rewards based on time logged in. The bonus RP XP script could SORT of be viewed as a punishment to people who get to play less often because if you are logged in more you could accrue more of that. I'm the type of player that isn't going to sit around town and just talk about the weather... it's likely that if there is nothing interesting going on in town like a DM event my character would want to be a part of or arranging some kind of business deal for his smithing... I'll be out doing dungeons because I want to progress my character and get stronger. The slow rate of progression currently on the server only makes me want to do this more! If the idea is to cut down on grinding, perhaps speed up the rate at which you can gain skill XP? Uh... I was talking about hardcore MMO people. They refer to people that play a couple hours a week as "filthy casuals." Nowhere in my post was I saying that you were a hardcore MMO player...  |
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