Post by sareth675 on Jul 22, 2015 16:33:29 GMT -5
(Didn't know whether to post in general or suggestions... but it's sort of a suggestion and sort of a statement, and a discussion point, and whatever you want to call it. It's a long post. That's what it is)
Hello!
If you hate blocks of text... I actually can't make a tl;dr of this post. Deal or don't read. Simples
Anyway. On to the more serious matter of communication.
This isn't to praise the way communication has been handled on the forums between staff and players. (Though it has been remarkably more civil than previous PW's I've been on)
This also isn't to bash the way it's been handled.
This is also not just about communication between staff and players. It will also cover communication about the server itself, to it's players.
Thus, I will now continue to type, in as an indifferent manner as I can, my experience about not only the server as a whole, in the hopes that in one consolidated format, I can communicate what I see as pros and cons of everything that's led up until this point, but also to try to dispel some common mistakes made on other PW's forums I've been on (which is basically all of them by now). I'll try to back up any points I make with relevant quotes from the forums / server info as I can, so as to not seem like I'm pulling assumptions out of thin air (though assumptions are something I'll come onto later).
DISCLAIMER: I know this server is in beta and much is liable to change. I do not have information on absolutely everything planned for the server, or of all of its mechanics off by heart. As with any piece of writing, there will be bias and there well be conjecture, but I hope to try keep it to a minimum to make an informed and well measured assessment of what I believe to be the successes and problems the community of this server has. And yeah, I'll be reflectively bashing myself in this thread. Any negative points I make about something and use one of your posts to back it up (if you're one of those people), don't be offended! I could have used other examples, or maybe not. Maybe yours is the only example I could use, but I trust that we're all adult enough on here to know that this is an evaluative piece, to assess the server. To some this post may seem like a 'harsh truth' thing, or a slap in the face. It's not. We all want this server to be better. I'm just taking a dive into the deep end and getting the nasty out there, because too often PW's die because nobody says what needs to be said. It's a shame. It really is. So take this as being 100% positive criticism to help improve everyone's experience here. Please. I beg you. Don't lynch me with pitchforks. If I am truly just being an obnoxious tosser, send me a swathe of angry PMs. But please don't spam this thread with hate mail ^^.
Let's start with my server experience thus far.
Pros:
- Tutorial is broad and a nice introduction to the lore and mechanics as well as providing some challenge.
- Leveling system is innovative and new. A real treat to start out planning characters in a way unlike base NWN2
- Maps. The areas on the server are incredibly detailed for a PW and really good fun to explore.
- DM style. It seems very hands off, with a focus on offering clues and suggestions for players to build on and take them the way they want.
- Lore. Refreshing whilst still having familiarity to certain RL subjects that makes it fairly easy to pick up.
- Forums. They have been almost 100% civil for the time I have been on them. It is genuinely surprising to me.
- Party Scaling. One of the systems I legitimately hope does not change. Party size to spawn size offers a perfect mix of strategy and specialty for characters, generally offers a good challenge.
- Ideas. This server is beta, and has so many ideas for systems to add and seems to have a clear idea of what to do. But with a to-do list your size, I'm not surprised
- The Community. I don't know many of the people on this server from previous servers, guess we could say we were of a different crowd. But it's been a pleasure to talk with everyone I have OOCly, and nobody from my experience has let any IC conflict cause any drama. That's spectacular really.
Cons:
- Tutorial. If I have to do this for every alt character I make, I will tear my own face off. It's great! As a one off experience. Please give players a chance to skip it. (Yeah, already failed and making suggestions. What can you do eh?)
- Leveling system. It is not made fully clear which areas are level / proficiency appropriate for your character. Since there is no "level" to arbitrarily assign to an area, it would be nice to know where the exp cut off points are for areas.
- Maps. There isn't enough of them! I know this is being worked on but... it's still got to be said for a complete evaluation.
- DM style. Very hands off DMing is refreshing, but sometimes it's so vague whether a DM is still with you or not (not seen a single DM 'emote' whilst in an event thus far), that it's hard to know exactly... what to do. Players do need SOME direction, even if DMs here feel that it may cause backlash in certain scenarios, it's a necessity to keep players focused on a specific goal during an event.
- Lore. I don't expect you guys to have written 3.5E's amount of lore stuff, and I imagine more will come out as the server progresses, but again, needs to be on this list for a complete evaluation. Need more lore in almost all aspects.
- Economy. Yeah, this is probably one of the hardest things ever to balance on a PW, and it will probably never be totally right. But as it stands, crafting is too expensive in raw cash costs whereas materials are not expensive enough. There is not enough reliable gold sinks (banks are ATM a cash generating machine, not a gold sink). Gold sinks will probably become more accessible when Factions systems are fully implemented (or so I've been led to believe). Merchants offer more cash as a maximum now but have reduced the amount they pay for lower level gear. I haven't tested enough since the most recent patch to make a measured assessment of averages, but safe to say, this is on the Cons because it will need a f$%k load of work, and probably always will ^^
- Custom systems transparency. Okay this is a biggy for me. I like knowing mechanics, not to abuse or manipulate them (maybe to find bugs), but to know what works, what doesn't and what's going to screw me. This server has pretty much all custom mechanics, yet... I seem to be always asking more questions about how they work. There needs to be a place with all the mechanics FULLY EXPLAINED in stickies on the forums or a wiki. No surprises, no beating around the bush. Just say what does what, how it works, and we're all good ^^
- Prioritization. I don't know how many builders this server has, as far as I know, it's a one man job. (f$%king hero Psionic + anyone I don't know who's a builder) Which is in and of itself impressive. But oh my god you have to prioritize certain things better. Storage should be the last concern to make, there's nothing worth storing. Yet over and over again people post about the graveyard being the only (and thus totally unbalanced) area to get cash and grind. Thus all the other areas (which are worth exploring aesthetically) are made totally redundant. It's a shame to see them effectively wasted. Also as people are now breaching the point where they need the next level of areas to explore... well, there we go. Self explanatory. Prioritize what the server population needs, as opposed to whatever's next on the checklist. I know it's not always the most fun thing to just map loads or just bug fix a particular thing endlessly... but it's got to be said. For current and future builders / scripters alike. (Recent patches have updated the areas I'm referencing, but I've not had 10 hours to go through each of them individually to reassess them, so I'll probably make separate suggestion threads later)
Okay... with that out of the way. Hopefully that's highlighted some of the strengths and weaknesses of the beta thus far. Some of which have been pasted over the forums already, but it's good to have it all in one place.
Next on the list. Forums. Yeah typing on a forum, about the forum I'm typing on.
Suggestions:
So far suggestion threads have been going well, for the most part. I think firstly it's best to start off with something I often see as a mistake many PW's make in the suggestions part of the forum.
Suggestions should never be approached with a negative mind set.
The reason people are suggesting something, is because they believe the server can be better. Suggestions should never be shot down off the bat. They ought to be debated and expanded upon, until a consensus has been reached. And the consensus that is reached should not be made by staff alone! Nor should a player group which has a particularly large amount of forum presence push for something they want to the detriment of other players.
You might be thinking to yourself "But Sareth, that's a rather cynical view point about peoples motives." Sure it is. But it's true. How many PW's can you honestly say you've been on where no alterior motive has affected a server decision? Without the best interests of the server itself in mind? Some of you may honestly answer this with none, but I reckon there's an astounding majority here who can say they've been boned by a decision gone wrong.
Thankfully! I've not seen anything like this on this server yet, but I've seen it worm it's way forward far too often, and I really, reeeeeeally hope it doesn't happen here. This server has a chance to not make those mistakes. And it has a good chance by my reckoning.
And we're allowed to make mistakes. Staff is, players are. That shouldn't demerit any suggestions they make, or any input they have on a thread. If one player makes 5 stupid suggestions or says things that no one thinks is good, when they make their 6th suggestion, don't enter the thread thinking "Oh here we go again, Bobby Smith has got another dumb idea."
Approach each suggestion thread as a separate thing. Again, the reason the suggestions are being made, is because someone thinks it will benefit the server. Take that seriously. We all want this place to be better, and it can be 10x better. But only if we treat each and every idea with the same measured approach. Once bias starts seeping in to a particular way of dealing with server decisions, it's over. I can guarantee that, because I've seen it at least half a dozen times before on NWN2.
At the end of the day, the server has a direction. Keep following it, but don't get too enamored by that direction that it pushes the server further and further into the niche category, and the excellent 20-30 population we've been seeing drops to <10.
The rule of thumb that I use is, if a suggestion thread has been ended within the first 3 posts, then it wasn't expanded upon at all or it's already being solved. If the thread has ended by 5 posts, then it wasn't expanded upon enough or someone isn't reading. If a suggestion thread has been made for the 50th time, don't just brush it aside and think "Oh, beating that dead horse again." Because that mindset is the mindset of the status quo. And it's detrimental to making a better environment for everyone to enjoy. If a thread has cropped up for the 50th time, it's because it's still a problem and needs to be looked into.
And for the sake of the players sanity, if Staff would kindly just post even 1 sentence in a suggestions thread, saying they've looked at it and it's being discussed, that would stop most threads derailing or continuing on pointlessly only for someone to chip in and say "By the way guys, that was patched today." Yeah well we ain't mind readers, we don't know when a patch is going in until development sticky has been updated. Even something as simple as "This suggestion is already in the pipelines." Or "We're working on something similar atm." Would solve about 50% of all future suggestions within the first couple of posts. Great!
Bugs & Server Content:
Refer to the paragraph directly above this one. Again, if a bug is already known about and currently being worked on. 1 sentence is all it takes to stop a thread going on pointlessly and spiraling into something it really doesn't need to be.
It's beta. We all signed up for that, we know that. But I'll tell you something about the community I don't think anyone will deny.
When you give them something good, they want more of it. And we're an impatient bunch.
That's right! This server is good. It's damn good by NWN2 standards. I wouldn't call it my favorite, far from it. I've been on it a week. But it has so much more to be added. And I come on this forum every day and hope to see that development sticky with something new on it. Because I'm waiting for new content, because I'm an impatient bastard. We want more! Because it's good. And I think it's good to keep that in mind.
Please staff don't take the player demands as a negative thing. It just means we're still interested, we still want to see it all get bigger and better.
But players! Yes, including myself. Probably especially myself. But I'm sure others will agree when I say, that upon stepping back and looking over all the bugs and suggestions I've posted, it's been a week. A whole, 1 week. I've played on some servers for literal years.
There will be more. But it will take time. So I'll slap my own wrist and apologize for my incessant desire for more content. I'm the sort of person who plays Skyrim with 100+ mods because I want more. And I assure you now, I'll always be one of the first to post up those bugs and suggestions about the new content being released. Cos I'll dive on it like a rabid dog (as will many others)
Big Obvious Stamps:
Sareth's thread, a scientific analysis of how many times someone can bring up the same point. Well, here it comes again.
MAKE BIG F$%IN STAMPS ON THREADS TO SAY THEY'RE DONE.
IT'S BEING WORKED ON. STOP POSTING HERE.
Okay. Yeah, maybe a bit of an over the top example but... seriously, Staff, if there's one thing you take from this wall of text, (if any of you get this far without dying of old age), is make BIG STAMPS ON THREADS THAT ARE DONE.
Make sure, without a doubt, 100%, it cannot be debated further. This is being worked on. Quit posting you incessant NWN2 players. Because we will. At the end of the day, we like posting, we wouldn't be on a forum if we didn't. I mean hell, look at what I'm posting. Total waste of my time? Maybe, but I guess I like posting ^^ I like posting so much, I recommend you use BIG CAPITAL LETTERS AND STAMP THREADS THAT ARE DONE SO I DON'T POST ON THEM EXCESSIVELY WHEN THEY'RE FINISHED.
Got the idea? It will help stop any pointless, irrelevant forum debates spiraling out of control, by simply pasting in big, or small letters, preferably big, that the thing is over, and we all ought to go home for a cup of tea. Or lock the thread. Though if you lock anything. IF any threads get locked, you better 110% but BIG STAMPS as the last post on that thread, as to why you locked it. Because if not, people start thinking "Why was that thread locked? CONSPIRACY TIME!"
Maybe it will only be a minority of the server that does it, maybe 50% of players will do it, but rumor mongering is another great skill of mankind. Unfortunately. So make sure the facts are out there. If something is done, say it's done.
Also more detailed posts on the development log would be great. I know it's tedious but it'd help with things and stop nasty surprises, like the vendor prices changing! Seriously, go look at the development log for the last 5 posts. Nothing about changing vendor prices. Let's be totally honest, that's not really fair on the player base is it, to make a change like that without prior warning...
Even tiny bug fixes are necessary to post, so people don't reopen or keep asking if their bug thread they made 4 days ago is still relevant.
(Sauce engines.freeforums.net/thread/24/development-log?page=5)
THIS SECTION IS NOW FINISHED. PLEASE SCROLL DOWN FOR FURTHER INFORMATION. (or give up whilst you still can!)
The Two Sides. Them & Us:
Maybe everyone on this server is lucky and has never had to go through this. But as I've said, I've seen some s"%^ *cue thousand yard stare* in my time on NWN2 PW forums. And it generally revolves around staff and players thinking they're 2 different sides.
And this server is more vulnerable to it happening than most.
And it's because of one decision staff has made for the betterment of the main server plot.
Fuzz - First off, we, as a team, have agreed that the Senior DMs (YMD, Pochoclo, and myself) will ONLY DM and not have DM-PC characters that get involved in plots. A lot of other servers allow this, but in our experience, even when there is no metagaming or favoritism going on, players will often assume the worse, and that causes unnecessary drama, which the entire team is extremely allergic to. As a benefit, this means that we'll be devoting all of our time to DMing, so if one of us is around, we're on the DM client, making more stuff for you players to do! (Sauce engines.freeforums.net/thread/110/info-dms)
Obviously, senior DMs have had some experience in this nastiness. It ain't fun. Not for anyone. But unfortunately... by not having PCs (or at least that's what this post implies), it means said senior DMs are unaware of what it actually is like to PLAY the server. And playing is often a VERY DIFFERENT experience to what the numbers add up to in the system.
Cue examples. (Sorry Fuzz, but you post the most in response to players! Which is a good thing in itself but in these situations... D:)
Fuzz - Well, being able to gather ingredients will make crafting a lot more feasible, as well. (Sauce engines.freeforums.net/thread/214/vendor-buying-prices)
Not at all like the reality of it. But that's discussed in the thread.
Fuzz - It'd be game breaking because you'd have an infinite use lockpick. They're meant to be a good sink. (Sauce engines.freeforums.net/thread/205/jewelry-crafting)
Hehe, slight typo there by the looks of it xD But yeah, perhaps this trend is being noticed now? And I'm sure it's not just Fuzz! As I said, they're just the ones I can find off the top of my head.
Also don't be a pretentious twat like I was in my response.
Sareth675 - And don't say lock picks are a gold sink. 23bucks for 25 of them isn't an effective gold sink at all.
A pretty obnoxious way of saying what I could have termed in a much more polite manner. Especially to a legitimate point. Sure it's not exactly the most offensive example of a response to a DM (not that I've seen any on here) but I was pushing it. I'm sorry for that.
Unfortunately, in response to the concern about vendor prices, again, a legitimate concern about the playability of the server, many posts have been made. Some less helpful than others, but some in particular I'm going to point out to dispel something I see on every PW thus far. Without exception.
(Yeah again, nothing personal, but Fuzz, you're in the firing line today xD)
Fuzz - The level of outcry in the last 48 hours (less, actually) about this vendor situation is pretty remarkable, especially considering this is a beta with practically daily tweaks, we (the staff) all have day jobs and do this for fun, and the Head Developer specifically responded to the concerns saying it's not currently working as intended. (Sauce engines.freeforums.net/thread/245/cash-flow)
Okay. Let's get something straight. The Staff have day jobs and do this for fun. Yeah, the players are no different. They have day jobs, and want to come home and have some fun on the server they've chosen to play on. When they come back to see what appears to be a small change to staff, which in fact has server changing affects to players... that affects the fun they're having after their day at work. It's a two way street. This line of argument always irritates me whenever I read it because it's creating a Them & Us situation. Unknowingly and unintentionally. I know that is 100% not what Fuzz was trying to do, but honestly, it happens without us knowing at the best of times, so we have to keep on our toes for this kind of stuff. So we can all stay as one big community
Also the point about Psionic responding saying it's not currently working as intended, didn't actually in BIG PLAIN STAMPY LETTERS say not to keep posting until the fix had been in to re-evaluate it all. Sorry, I'll say it again, sometimes us players ain't so good at reading, couple that with our love of posting stuff, well, you have yourselves an endless thread, even if the fix is in the works Not to patronize the player base at all, I mean, I kept posting. Sometimes we all just need a real simple reminder.
The more and louder people shout about something, the more they care about it. The reason the level of outcry was so damn high was because the players care. They want to see the server do well, they want to keep playing! If something is effecting that desire to play, I bloody well hope they have a high level of outcry. Sitting in silence and sucking up bad decisions has never, ever, ever been good for a server. It breeds bad blood. Again, even if not intentional.
Yes, again, it's beta! We're impatient, we see something we don't like, we start complaining about it. Maybe we were too fast, as Kaybrie said...
Kaybrie - I'm on the fence about this change honestly, I think it's too soon to tell what the economy is going to look like for it. (The change just happened this morning, (Sauce engines.freeforums.net/thread/214/vendor-buying-prices?page=1)
It wasn't too soon to say something about it. It was too soon to start doom saying the end of the server. And I, and I'm sure anyone else who did is sorry that they didn't give staff more of a chance to respond. And now staff has, we can move on and continue to evaluate updates and keep improving the server! Beta is there to be exploited, to be tampered with, and I hope the daily changes and such keep coming. It's wonderful to see everyone be so pro-active. Even if it can be stressful or irritable at times.
"But Sareth, why are you now wearing a tinfoil hat you crazy staff hater."
I don't hate staff! I hate douche bags. Of which I've met none thus far on the server, not OOCly anyway
And that's great! That's the best result I've ever had on a server. 0 OOC douche bags! Outstanding.
So. I think we can avoid the Them vs Us that shows up far too often on the internet, or in life in general. We just have to keep in mind, we're all working for the betterment of the server, in different ways. We need to give people time, space, and respect. I know that's in the server rules... but server rules often (not always, and they haven't here yet), get overlooked on the forums.
Moving on to the next section!
Reading is Important!
Reading sure is important. I mean, I'm an English Student and I don't read posts properly more often than not, missing key points and hence the need for BIG STAMPY REMINDERS TO STOP POSTING.
Heh. It never gets old eh?
Anyway. So this is about reading posts before you post! Read them.
Read them again.
And again.
x10.
Until you are 100% positive you know what the person is talking about.
And if you're still unsure... DON'T POST. Wait until someone else does, see if they make it clearer for you. Then add your two cents.
AFTER READING IT AGAIN.
I screw this up. Way more than I should really, but hey ho, we're human, we make mistakes. But I'll just post some really, really, really simple examples of not reading.
(This is not meant offensively, of course, it's mostly simple mistakes, but it removes irrelevant posts and everything becomes cleaner and more streamlined ^^)
Sareth675 - Just killed Shelob with a group for the first time. Much better boss fight than the Diver I must admit! Great fun to fight... however... (Sauce engines.freeforums.net/thread/207/boss-loot)
First line of the post. "Just killed Shelob with a group for the first time"
The second post on the thread Sorry Sobriquet, you should read more carefully!
Sobriquet - Was this your first time going through Shelob?
First line of Sobriquet's post It actually made me laugh when I read it so thanks for that, but yeah... read before you post! This example is totally harmless but sometimes... it can be more detrimental to a thread.
It can derail, it can lead to provocation. Thus leading to more bad blood until a DM comes in, stomps on it (because they have to, not because they like playing forum dictator), before more offensive stuff is posted, etc.
I've seen it on other forums, I hope I never see it on here, and I don't think I will if everyone just remembers this simple forum etiquette ^^
Moving on to probably the last point, which is more of an elaborated suggestion as well... But too much of this is just general discussion so...
Assumptions & a Wiki!
NOTE: IF THERE ALREADY IS A WIKI I'M TOO DUMB TO FIND IT.
Assumptions are a dangerous thing. And I've found myself making many, many an assumption about server mechanics. Because... they're not explained in great enough detail in the tutorial (cos it'd probabaly take 5 hours to finish the tutorial then), but I also cannot find them explained in great enough detail on the forums! This leads to a lot of unnecessary questions on the forums about mechanics which shouldn't be needed!
Observe. (http://engines.freeforums.net/thread/184/combat-system-discussion)
An entire thread asking questions about the combat system!
Why? This shouldn't be necessary!
So I propose... like other PW's before, there be a wiki for Engines of Ascension!
"But Sareth, nobody ever makes PW wiki's properly, detailed enough, or well enough to actually bother looking at one!"
And I say, yes. You would be right fictional voice of the forums. All wiki's for servers I've seen have been incomplete and fairly unhelpful in most regards.
However.
I counter this with, I've spoken to (typed to, whatever), players on the server, who don't have a forum account, because they don't like forums for PW's. Too much drama, or too much stuff to trawl through (kinda like this post) ... too much stuff that doesn't concern them. Etc.
Thus I feel a wiki would help alleviate some of the vagueness of explanation of server mechanics and such.
I know there is an IRC, which can answer some questions, but just having a written reference point would be so much easier and more accessible for EVERY player on the server, not just those who want to sit in an IRC or check the forums.
"But Sareth, nobody sane wants to sit and write a wiki for everything on EoA."
Correct! Nobody sane would want to. So obviously the server would need some nut job who likes writing really descriptive posts about general stuff to create a wiki. >_> *hint* Yes, I am volunteering to help write a wiki if staff decides one would be helpful for the server.
. . . .
"Oh Gods, he can't possibly have any more to say can he?"
Sorry forum voice, but it turns out that's all folks!
Yeah. That's it. End of the post. You made it this far, you deserve a medal. (Unless you cheated by scrolling to the bottom, then I suggest you go back up and read. READ! But maybe not twice. That might be asking too much.)
PS: Again, nothing is meant in an offensive manner, and I hope everything I've pointed out has been positively critical, and not negatively critical. If I made a point which you (the real reader) believes is unfair or uncalled for, then please send me a PM. I'll make edits at the bottom of this post on feedback.
EDIT 1: Sobriquet's example may (or may not) have been asking about whether I fought the boss Shelob solo. Given, I don't think fighting bosses solo is possible on this server (yet), the possibility of that meaning remains. Thus, said example may not be 100% proven accurate until Sobriquet has a chance to say what they meant for sure. ^^
Hello!
If you hate blocks of text... I actually can't make a tl;dr of this post. Deal or don't read. Simples
Anyway. On to the more serious matter of communication.
This isn't to praise the way communication has been handled on the forums between staff and players. (Though it has been remarkably more civil than previous PW's I've been on)
This also isn't to bash the way it's been handled.
This is also not just about communication between staff and players. It will also cover communication about the server itself, to it's players.
Thus, I will now continue to type, in as an indifferent manner as I can, my experience about not only the server as a whole, in the hopes that in one consolidated format, I can communicate what I see as pros and cons of everything that's led up until this point, but also to try to dispel some common mistakes made on other PW's forums I've been on (which is basically all of them by now). I'll try to back up any points I make with relevant quotes from the forums / server info as I can, so as to not seem like I'm pulling assumptions out of thin air (though assumptions are something I'll come onto later).
DISCLAIMER: I know this server is in beta and much is liable to change. I do not have information on absolutely everything planned for the server, or of all of its mechanics off by heart. As with any piece of writing, there will be bias and there well be conjecture, but I hope to try keep it to a minimum to make an informed and well measured assessment of what I believe to be the successes and problems the community of this server has. And yeah, I'll be reflectively bashing myself in this thread. Any negative points I make about something and use one of your posts to back it up (if you're one of those people), don't be offended! I could have used other examples, or maybe not. Maybe yours is the only example I could use, but I trust that we're all adult enough on here to know that this is an evaluative piece, to assess the server. To some this post may seem like a 'harsh truth' thing, or a slap in the face. It's not. We all want this server to be better. I'm just taking a dive into the deep end and getting the nasty out there, because too often PW's die because nobody says what needs to be said. It's a shame. It really is. So take this as being 100% positive criticism to help improve everyone's experience here. Please. I beg you. Don't lynch me with pitchforks. If I am truly just being an obnoxious tosser, send me a swathe of angry PMs. But please don't spam this thread with hate mail ^^.
Let's start with my server experience thus far.
Pros:
- Tutorial is broad and a nice introduction to the lore and mechanics as well as providing some challenge.
- Leveling system is innovative and new. A real treat to start out planning characters in a way unlike base NWN2
- Maps. The areas on the server are incredibly detailed for a PW and really good fun to explore.
- DM style. It seems very hands off, with a focus on offering clues and suggestions for players to build on and take them the way they want.
- Lore. Refreshing whilst still having familiarity to certain RL subjects that makes it fairly easy to pick up.
- Forums. They have been almost 100% civil for the time I have been on them. It is genuinely surprising to me.
- Party Scaling. One of the systems I legitimately hope does not change. Party size to spawn size offers a perfect mix of strategy and specialty for characters, generally offers a good challenge.
- Ideas. This server is beta, and has so many ideas for systems to add and seems to have a clear idea of what to do. But with a to-do list your size, I'm not surprised
- The Community. I don't know many of the people on this server from previous servers, guess we could say we were of a different crowd. But it's been a pleasure to talk with everyone I have OOCly, and nobody from my experience has let any IC conflict cause any drama. That's spectacular really.
Cons:
- Tutorial. If I have to do this for every alt character I make, I will tear my own face off. It's great! As a one off experience. Please give players a chance to skip it. (Yeah, already failed and making suggestions. What can you do eh?
)- Leveling system. It is not made fully clear which areas are level / proficiency appropriate for your character. Since there is no "level" to arbitrarily assign to an area, it would be nice to know where the exp cut off points are for areas.
- Maps. There isn't enough of them! I know this is being worked on but... it's still got to be said for a complete evaluation.
- DM style. Very hands off DMing is refreshing, but sometimes it's so vague whether a DM is still with you or not (not seen a single DM 'emote' whilst in an event thus far), that it's hard to know exactly... what to do. Players do need SOME direction, even if DMs here feel that it may cause backlash in certain scenarios, it's a necessity to keep players focused on a specific goal during an event.
- Lore. I don't expect you guys to have written 3.5E's amount of lore stuff, and I imagine more will come out as the server progresses, but again, needs to be on this list for a complete evaluation. Need more lore in almost all aspects.
- Economy. Yeah, this is probably one of the hardest things ever to balance on a PW, and it will probably never be totally right. But as it stands, crafting is too expensive in raw cash costs whereas materials are not expensive enough. There is not enough reliable gold sinks (banks are ATM a cash generating machine, not a gold sink). Gold sinks will probably become more accessible when Factions systems are fully implemented (or so I've been led to believe). Merchants offer more cash as a maximum now but have reduced the amount they pay for lower level gear. I haven't tested enough since the most recent patch to make a measured assessment of averages, but safe to say, this is on the Cons because it will need a f$%k load of work, and probably always will ^^
- Custom systems transparency. Okay this is a biggy for me. I like knowing mechanics, not to abuse or manipulate them (maybe to find bugs
), but to know what works, what doesn't and what's going to screw me. This server has pretty much all custom mechanics, yet... I seem to be always asking more questions about how they work. There needs to be a place with all the mechanics FULLY EXPLAINED in stickies on the forums or a wiki. No surprises, no beating around the bush. Just say what does what, how it works, and we're all good ^^- Prioritization. I don't know how many builders this server has, as far as I know, it's a one man job. (f$%king hero Psionic + anyone I don't know who's a builder) Which is in and of itself impressive. But oh my god you have to prioritize certain things better. Storage should be the last concern to make, there's nothing worth storing. Yet over and over again people post about the graveyard being the only (and thus totally unbalanced) area to get cash and grind. Thus all the other areas (which are worth exploring aesthetically) are made totally redundant. It's a shame to see them effectively wasted. Also as people are now breaching the point where they need the next level of areas to explore... well, there we go. Self explanatory. Prioritize what the server population needs, as opposed to whatever's next on the checklist. I know it's not always the most fun thing to just map loads or just bug fix a particular thing endlessly... but it's got to be said. For current and future builders / scripters alike. (Recent patches have updated the areas I'm referencing, but I've not had 10 hours to go through each of them individually to reassess them, so I'll probably make separate suggestion threads later)
Okay... with that out of the way. Hopefully that's highlighted some of the strengths and weaknesses of the beta thus far. Some of which have been pasted over the forums already, but it's good to have it all in one place.
Next on the list. Forums. Yeah typing on a forum, about the forum I'm typing on.
Suggestions:
So far suggestion threads have been going well, for the most part. I think firstly it's best to start off with something I often see as a mistake many PW's make in the suggestions part of the forum.
Suggestions should never be approached with a negative mind set.
The reason people are suggesting something, is because they believe the server can be better. Suggestions should never be shot down off the bat. They ought to be debated and expanded upon, until a consensus has been reached. And the consensus that is reached should not be made by staff alone! Nor should a player group which has a particularly large amount of forum presence push for something they want to the detriment of other players.
You might be thinking to yourself "But Sareth, that's a rather cynical view point about peoples motives." Sure it is. But it's true. How many PW's can you honestly say you've been on where no alterior motive has affected a server decision? Without the best interests of the server itself in mind? Some of you may honestly answer this with none, but I reckon there's an astounding majority here who can say they've been boned by a decision gone wrong.
Thankfully! I've not seen anything like this on this server yet, but I've seen it worm it's way forward far too often, and I really, reeeeeeally hope it doesn't happen here. This server has a chance to not make those mistakes. And it has a good chance by my reckoning.
And we're allowed to make mistakes. Staff is, players are. That shouldn't demerit any suggestions they make, or any input they have on a thread. If one player makes 5 stupid suggestions or says things that no one thinks is good, when they make their 6th suggestion, don't enter the thread thinking "Oh here we go again, Bobby Smith has got another dumb idea."
Approach each suggestion thread as a separate thing. Again, the reason the suggestions are being made, is because someone thinks it will benefit the server. Take that seriously. We all want this place to be better, and it can be 10x better. But only if we treat each and every idea with the same measured approach. Once bias starts seeping in to a particular way of dealing with server decisions, it's over. I can guarantee that, because I've seen it at least half a dozen times before on NWN2.
At the end of the day, the server has a direction. Keep following it, but don't get too enamored by that direction that it pushes the server further and further into the niche category, and the excellent 20-30 population we've been seeing drops to <10.
The rule of thumb that I use is, if a suggestion thread has been ended within the first 3 posts, then it wasn't expanded upon at all or it's already being solved. If the thread has ended by 5 posts, then it wasn't expanded upon enough or someone isn't reading
. If a suggestion thread has been made for the 50th time, don't just brush it aside and think "Oh, beating that dead horse again." Because that mindset is the mindset of the status quo. And it's detrimental to making a better environment for everyone to enjoy. If a thread has cropped up for the 50th time, it's because it's still a problem and needs to be looked into.And for the sake of the players sanity, if Staff would kindly just post even 1 sentence in a suggestions thread, saying they've looked at it and it's being discussed, that would stop most threads derailing or continuing on pointlessly only for someone to chip in and say "By the way guys, that was patched today." Yeah well we ain't mind readers, we don't know when a patch is going in until development sticky has been updated. Even something as simple as "This suggestion is already in the pipelines." Or "We're working on something similar atm." Would solve about 50% of all future suggestions within the first couple of posts. Great!
Bugs & Server Content:
Refer to the paragraph directly above this one. Again, if a bug is already known about and currently being worked on. 1 sentence is all it takes to stop a thread going on pointlessly and spiraling into something it really doesn't need to be.
It's beta. We all signed up for that, we know that. But I'll tell you something about the community I don't think anyone will deny.
When you give them something good, they want more of it. And we're an impatient bunch.
That's right! This server is good. It's damn good by NWN2 standards. I wouldn't call it my favorite, far from it. I've been on it a week. But it has so much more to be added. And I come on this forum every day and hope to see that development sticky with something new on it. Because I'm waiting for new content, because I'm an impatient bastard. We want more! Because it's good. And I think it's good to keep that in mind.
Please staff don't take the player demands as a negative thing. It just means we're still interested, we still want to see it all get bigger and better.
But players! Yes, including myself. Probably especially myself. But I'm sure others will agree when I say, that upon stepping back and looking over all the bugs and suggestions I've posted, it's been a week. A whole, 1 week. I've played on some servers for literal years.
There will be more. But it will take time. So I'll slap my own wrist and apologize for my incessant desire for more content. I'm the sort of person who plays Skyrim with 100+ mods because I want more. And I assure you now, I'll always be one of the first to post up those bugs and suggestions about the new content being released. Cos I'll dive on it like a rabid dog (as will many others
)Big Obvious Stamps:
Sareth's thread, a scientific analysis of how many times someone can bring up the same point. Well, here it comes again.
MAKE BIG F$%IN STAMPS ON THREADS TO SAY THEY'RE DONE.
IT'S BEING WORKED ON. STOP POSTING HERE.
Okay. Yeah, maybe a bit of an over the top example but... seriously, Staff, if there's one thing you take from this wall of text, (if any of you get this far without dying of old age), is make BIG STAMPS ON THREADS THAT ARE DONE.
Make sure, without a doubt, 100%, it cannot be debated further. This is being worked on. Quit posting you incessant NWN2 players. Because we will. At the end of the day, we like posting, we wouldn't be on a forum if we didn't. I mean hell, look at what I'm posting. Total waste of my time? Maybe, but I guess I like posting ^^ I like posting so much, I recommend you use BIG CAPITAL LETTERS AND STAMP THREADS THAT ARE DONE SO I DON'T POST ON THEM EXCESSIVELY WHEN THEY'RE FINISHED.
Got the idea?
It will help stop any pointless, irrelevant forum debates spiraling out of control, by simply pasting in big, or small letters, preferably big, that the thing is over, and we all ought to go home for a cup of tea. Or lock the thread. Though if you lock anything. IF any threads get locked, you better 110% but BIG STAMPS as the last post on that thread, as to why you locked it. Because if not, people start thinking "Why was that thread locked? CONSPIRACY TIME!"Maybe it will only be a minority of the server that does it, maybe 50% of players will do it, but rumor mongering is another great skill of mankind. Unfortunately. So make sure the facts are out there. If something is done, say it's done.
Also more detailed posts on the development log would be great. I know it's tedious but it'd help with things and stop nasty surprises, like the vendor prices changing! Seriously, go look at the development log for the last 5 posts. Nothing about changing vendor prices. Let's be totally honest, that's not really fair on the player base is it, to make a change like that without prior warning...
Even tiny bug fixes are necessary to post, so people don't reopen or keep asking if their bug thread they made 4 days ago is still relevant.
(Sauce engines.freeforums.net/thread/24/development-log?page=5)
THIS SECTION IS NOW FINISHED. PLEASE SCROLL DOWN FOR FURTHER INFORMATION. (or give up whilst you still can!)
The Two Sides. Them & Us:
Maybe everyone on this server is lucky and has never had to go through this. But as I've said, I've seen some s"%^ *cue thousand yard stare* in my time on NWN2 PW forums. And it generally revolves around staff and players thinking they're 2 different sides.
And this server is more vulnerable to it happening than most.
And it's because of one decision staff has made for the betterment of the main server plot.
Fuzz - First off, we, as a team, have agreed that the Senior DMs (YMD, Pochoclo, and myself) will ONLY DM and not have DM-PC characters that get involved in plots. A lot of other servers allow this, but in our experience, even when there is no metagaming or favoritism going on, players will often assume the worse, and that causes unnecessary drama, which the entire team is extremely allergic to. As a benefit, this means that we'll be devoting all of our time to DMing, so if one of us is around, we're on the DM client, making more stuff for you players to do!
(Sauce engines.freeforums.net/thread/110/info-dms)Obviously, senior DMs have had some experience in this nastiness. It ain't fun. Not for anyone. But unfortunately... by not having PCs (or at least that's what this post implies), it means said senior DMs are unaware of what it actually is like to PLAY the server. And playing is often a VERY DIFFERENT experience to what the numbers add up to in the system.
Cue examples. (Sorry Fuzz, but you post the most in response to players! Which is a good thing in itself but in these situations... D:)
Fuzz - Well, being able to gather ingredients will make crafting a lot more feasible, as well. (Sauce engines.freeforums.net/thread/214/vendor-buying-prices)
Not at all like the reality of it. But that's discussed in the thread.
Fuzz - It'd be game breaking because you'd have an infinite use lockpick. They're meant to be a good sink. (Sauce engines.freeforums.net/thread/205/jewelry-crafting)
Hehe, slight typo there by the looks of it xD But yeah, perhaps this trend is being noticed now? And I'm sure it's not just Fuzz! As I said, they're just the ones I can find off the top of my head.
Also don't be a pretentious twat like I was in my response.
Sareth675 - And don't say lock picks are a gold sink. 23bucks for 25 of them isn't an effective gold sink at all.
A pretty obnoxious way of saying what I could have termed in a much more polite manner. Especially to a legitimate point. Sure it's not exactly the most offensive example of a response to a DM (not that I've seen any on here) but I was pushing it. I'm sorry for that.
Unfortunately, in response to the concern about vendor prices, again, a legitimate concern about the playability of the server, many posts have been made. Some less helpful than others, but some in particular I'm going to point out to dispel something I see on every PW thus far. Without exception.
(Yeah again, nothing personal, but Fuzz, you're in the firing line today xD)
Fuzz - The level of outcry in the last 48 hours (less, actually) about this vendor situation is pretty remarkable, especially considering this is a beta with practically daily tweaks, we (the staff) all have day jobs and do this for fun, and the Head Developer specifically responded to the concerns saying it's not currently working as intended. (Sauce engines.freeforums.net/thread/245/cash-flow)
Okay. Let's get something straight. The Staff have day jobs and do this for fun. Yeah, the players are no different. They have day jobs, and want to come home and have some fun on the server they've chosen to play on. When they come back to see what appears to be a small change to staff, which in fact has server changing affects to players... that affects the fun they're having after their day at work. It's a two way street. This line of argument always irritates me whenever I read it because it's creating a Them & Us situation. Unknowingly and unintentionally. I know that is 100% not what Fuzz was trying to do, but honestly, it happens without us knowing at the best of times, so we have to keep on our toes for this kind of stuff. So we can all stay as one big community
Also the point about Psionic responding saying it's not currently working as intended, didn't actually in BIG PLAIN STAMPY LETTERS say not to keep posting until the fix had been in to re-evaluate it all. Sorry, I'll say it again, sometimes us players ain't so good at reading, couple that with our love of posting stuff, well, you have yourselves an endless thread, even if the fix is in the works
Not to patronize the player base at all, I mean, I kept posting. Sometimes we all just need a real simple reminder.The more and louder people shout about something, the more they care about it. The reason the level of outcry was so damn high was because the players care. They want to see the server do well, they want to keep playing! If something is effecting that desire to play, I bloody well hope they have a high level of outcry. Sitting in silence and sucking up bad decisions has never, ever, ever been good for a server. It breeds bad blood. Again, even if not intentional.
Yes, again, it's beta! We're impatient, we see something we don't like, we start complaining about it. Maybe we were too fast, as Kaybrie said...
Kaybrie - I'm on the fence about this change honestly, I think it's too soon to tell what the economy is going to look like for it. (The change just happened this morning, (Sauce engines.freeforums.net/thread/214/vendor-buying-prices?page=1)
It wasn't too soon to say something about it. It was too soon to start doom saying the end of the server. And I, and I'm sure anyone else who did is sorry that they didn't give staff more of a chance to respond. And now staff has, we can move on and continue to evaluate updates and keep improving the server! Beta is there to be exploited, to be tampered with, and I hope the daily changes and such keep coming. It's wonderful to see everyone be so pro-active. Even if it can be stressful or irritable at times.
"But Sareth, why are you now wearing a tinfoil hat you crazy staff hater."
I don't hate staff! I hate douche bags. Of which I've met none thus far on the server, not OOCly anyway
And that's great! That's the best result I've ever had on a server. 0 OOC douche bags! Outstanding.So. I think we can avoid the Them vs Us that shows up far too often on the internet, or in life in general. We just have to keep in mind, we're all working for the betterment of the server, in different ways. We need to give people time, space, and respect. I know that's in the server rules... but server rules often (not always, and they haven't here yet), get overlooked on the forums.
Moving on to the next section!
Reading is Important!
Reading sure is important. I mean, I'm an English Student and I don't read posts properly more often than not, missing key points and hence the need for BIG STAMPY REMINDERS TO STOP POSTING.
Heh. It never gets old eh?
Anyway. So this is about reading posts before you post! Read them.
Read them again.
And again.
x10.
Until you are 100% positive you know what the person is talking about.
And if you're still unsure... DON'T POST. Wait until someone else does, see if they make it clearer for you. Then add your two cents.
AFTER READING IT AGAIN.
I screw this up. Way more than I should really, but hey ho, we're human, we make mistakes. But I'll just post some really, really, really simple examples of not reading.
(This is not meant offensively, of course, it's mostly simple mistakes, but it removes irrelevant posts and everything becomes cleaner and more streamlined ^^)
Sareth675 - Just killed Shelob with a group for the first time. Much better boss fight than the Diver I must admit! Great fun to fight... however... (Sauce engines.freeforums.net/thread/207/boss-loot)
First line of the post. "Just killed Shelob with a group for the first time"
The second post on the thread
Sorry Sobriquet, you should read more carefully! Sobriquet - Was this your first time going through Shelob?
First line of Sobriquet's post
It actually made me laugh when I read it so thanks for that, but yeah... read before you post! This example is totally harmless but sometimes... it can be more detrimental to a thread.It can derail, it can lead to provocation. Thus leading to more bad blood until a DM comes in, stomps on it (because they have to, not because they like playing forum dictator), before more offensive stuff is posted, etc.
I've seen it on other forums, I hope I never see it on here, and I don't think I will if everyone just remembers this simple forum etiquette ^^
Moving on to probably the last point, which is more of an elaborated suggestion as well... But too much of this is just general discussion so...
Assumptions & a Wiki!
NOTE: IF THERE ALREADY IS A WIKI I'M TOO DUMB TO FIND IT.
Assumptions are a dangerous thing. And I've found myself making many, many an assumption about server mechanics. Because... they're not explained in great enough detail in the tutorial (cos it'd probabaly take 5 hours to finish the tutorial then), but I also cannot find them explained in great enough detail on the forums! This leads to a lot of unnecessary questions on the forums about mechanics which shouldn't be needed!
Observe. (http://engines.freeforums.net/thread/184/combat-system-discussion)
An entire thread asking questions about the combat system!
Why? This shouldn't be necessary!
So I propose... like other PW's before, there be a wiki for Engines of Ascension!
"But Sareth, nobody ever makes PW wiki's properly, detailed enough, or well enough to actually bother looking at one!"
And I say, yes. You would be right fictional voice of the forums. All wiki's for servers I've seen have been incomplete and fairly unhelpful in most regards.
However.
I counter this with, I've spoken to (typed to, whatever), players on the server, who don't have a forum account, because they don't like forums for PW's. Too much drama, or too much stuff to trawl through (kinda like this post
) ... too much stuff that doesn't concern them. Etc.Thus I feel a wiki would help alleviate some of the vagueness of explanation of server mechanics and such.
I know there is an IRC, which can answer some questions, but just having a written reference point would be so much easier and more accessible for EVERY player on the server, not just those who want to sit in an IRC or check the forums.
"But Sareth, nobody sane wants to sit and write a wiki for everything on EoA."
Correct! Nobody sane would want to. So obviously the server would need some nut job who likes writing really descriptive posts about general stuff to create a wiki. >_> *hint* Yes, I am volunteering to help write a wiki if staff decides one would be helpful for the server.
. . . .
"Oh Gods, he can't possibly have any more to say can he?"
Sorry forum voice, but it turns out that's all folks!
Yeah. That's it. End of the post. You made it this far, you deserve a medal. (Unless you cheated by scrolling to the bottom, then I suggest you go back up and read. READ! But maybe not twice. That might be asking too much.)
PS: Again, nothing is meant in an offensive manner, and I hope everything I've pointed out has been positively critical, and not negatively critical. If I made a point which you (the real reader) believes is unfair or uncalled for, then please send me a PM. I'll make edits at the bottom of this post on feedback.
EDIT 1: Sobriquet's example may (or may not) have been asking about whether I fought the boss Shelob solo. Given, I don't think fighting bosses solo is possible on this server (yet), the possibility of that meaning remains. Thus, said example may not be 100% proven accurate until Sobriquet has a chance to say what they meant for sure. ^^
